Trayvon Martin's Autopsy

[RANCH]

This thread sure got derailed. Anyone want to discuss the autopsy?

 

[Sun48shine]

Were you the same person at 28 as you were at 21? I know I wasn't but then again may I'm weird.

I am going on 50 years old and have my same character since my 20s. I am older now and willing to look more outside of the box.

 

[Sun48shine]

This thread sure got derailed. Anyone want to discuss the autopsy?

You're right. We need to stay focused on the autopsy. Gunshot wound went from front to back. Is there anywhere in the report that may have been missed, as to whether it was a straight shot or a horizontal shot?

 

[suzihawk]

This thread sure got derailed. Anyone want to discuss the autopsy?

It happens in every thread. This forum is in need of a general discussion thread where one can take the OT posts. JMO

 

[RANCH]

It happens in every thread. This forum is in need of a general discussion thread where one can take the OT posts. JMO

A lot of these posts can go into an existing thread and we can make new ones if needed. JMO.

 

[RANCH]

You're right. We need to stay focused on the autopsy. Gunshot wound went from front to back. Is there anywhere in the report that may have been missed, as to whether it was a straight shot or a horizontal shot?

I haven't seen anything that shows Trayvons position when the shot was fired. Probably because the ME has no way of knowing without an good eyewitness who saw the moment that the shot happened. JMO.

 

[Sun48shine]

I haven't seen anything that shows Trayvons position when the shot was fired. Probably because the ME has no way of knowing without an good eyewitness who saw the moment that the shot happened. JMO.

That makes me wonder more about the witnesses who say that they saw TM on top of GZ. Seems like someone would have seen the moment the gun was fired. JMO.

 

[K_Z]

The bullet shattered, hollow point, and I'm guessing that is why there is no exit wound. Both lungs collapsed. No way he could have formed a sentence, much less a flippant remark such as you got me. jmo

I disagree. The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

And it always seemed more likely to me that TM may have said not "You got me", but "You shot me". I also think it's possible he clapsed his hands to his chest in shock, and perhaps this is why he was found prone with his hands beneath him.

 

[dr dona]

Question---since the post was done within 17 hours of death is there a chance that some bruising on Travon's body might not have shown up in the post???? After the heart stops beating and blood no longer flows minor signs of injury can be missed..have seen this in other cases where the autopsy is repeated later??????? I'm asking this because its crossed my mind that perhaps TM's parents should have had a 2nd post done by an independent pathologist. Maybe I'm just wacho. What do you guys think???????

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It bothers me that all through this autopsy report, in fact 3 different places it is said that Trayvon was wearing a t-shirt and a sweatshirt but in the police reports it says a hoodie and a sweatshirt. There is a lot of difference in the two.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

pg 137

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Tshirt page 140

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Tshirt pg 141

 

[TorisMom003]

I'm thinking that since the report on Trayvon's clothing, his hoodie and shirt, say that he was shot at close range but yet the autopsy report states that Trayvon was shot in the chest at an intermediate range may prove that Zimmerman was holding onto Trayvon's hoodie/shirt to keep him detained when Zimmerman shot him.

MOO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

pg 122 FDLE report nike sweatshirt and sweatshirt is repeated many times in the docs.

 

[beach]

If you guys don't steer this thread back on topic, yet another one will be closed until mods have time to clean it up.

Please see Ranch's post in the Threadiquete sticky for directions on how to help keep threads on topic.

Thanks.

eta: before it spirals anymore by the quoting/responding of off topic posts, I have removed a few nearby that I saw. so if you are missing one, that is why.

 

[elementary]

For anyone who is interested, here's an excellent site for explaining and showing the effects of gunshots. Perfect for "lay" people like myself who need it simply explained.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distance.htm

 

[Sensei]

For anyone who is interested, here's an excellent site for explaining and showing the effects of gunshots. Perfect for "lay" people like myself who need it simply explained.

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distance.htm

So if I am understanding this correctly BOTH the lab analysis and the Medical examiner could have been correct in their findings.

The lab only analyzed the amount and quality of residue that was on the garments in question, and determined that it is their opinion that this was residue that is generally found on close or contact wounds BUT, that finding could change after testing with the specific weapon and amunition that caused the wound, where they fire shots from various distances and then compare to what is found on the garment in evidence and each specific weapon could give more or less residue than others and more or less depending on the ammunition that is used...so the lab finding would be conditional and the ME report would be definitive after additional testing?
Or maybe even vice versa?

So the discrepancy could be that the shot appeared close on lab analysis, yet when the specific weapon and ammunition were used it was found to be intermediate...or the other way around...IOW there would have to be more than just lab analysis to be definite about how much and the pattern of residue from a specific weapon, so additional testing and not just lab analysis.

Does that make sense or did I get it all futzed up?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

So if I am understanding this correctly BOTH the lab analysis and the Medical examiner could have been correct in their findings.

The lab only analyzed the amount and quality of residue that was on the garments in question, and determined that it is their opinion that this was residue that is generally found on close or contact wounds BUT, that finding could change after testing with the specific weapon and amunition that caused the wound, where they fire shots from various distances and then compare to what is found on the garment in evidence and each specific weapon could give more or less residue than others and more or less depending on the ammunition that is used...so the lab finding would be conditional and the ME report would be definitive after additional testing?
Or maybe even vice versa?

So the discrepancy could be that the shot appeared close on lab analysis, yet when the specific weapon and ammunition were used it was found to be intermediate...or the other way around...IOW there would have to be more than just lab analysis to be definite about how much and the pattern of residue from a specific weapon, so additional testing and not just lab analysis.

Does that make sense or did I get it all futzed up?

Or maybe they are both right and GZ had a hold on the bottom of Martins hoodie pulling it out and shot causing the hoodie and sweatshirt underneath to be away from the body but close to the gun as TorisMom suggested in the above post.

 

[K_Z]

I'm thinking that since the report on Trayvon's clothing, his hoodie and shirt, say that he was shot at close range but yet the autopsy report states that Trayvon was shot in the chest at an intermediate range may prove that Zimmerman was holding onto Trayvon's hoodie/shirt to keep him detained when Zimmerman shot him.

MOO

I agree that this is an area that will be probed with great intensity in depositions and at trial-- if it gets to trial.

There seems to be some disagreement between Dr. Bao (the ME who conducted the autopsy) and the investigators who examined the clothing. The distance of the GSW seems to be critical evidence, as there are no direct witnesses to the shooting, nor any security camera footage, etc. A CONTACT shot implies a potentially different scenario than a shot with the gun muzzle more than a foot distant to the victim. As an ME, Dr. Bao is likley accustomed to being deposed and explaining his reasoning, so it sure seems to me that he may be called as a witness.

I was curious as to Dr. Bao's professional background & jurisdiction, as it appeared to me that both Volusia and Seminole counties ("Districts 7 & 24") share ME resources, or have a combined office, from the letterhead on the documents. Dr. Bao is based in Volusia County-- so I was curious as to how the Volusia County ME ended up doing an autopsy for Seminole County. Was he the ME on call for both counties that day? Is he primarily an administrator, or does he do many autopsies? What is his experience with GSW analysis? He has a very impressive background, BTW, and has been an ME in Tarrant county Texas. His background includes a lot of research, and over 20 professional papers on cancer, cell, and radiation research. I'm uncertain what his experience is with GSW analysis. It seems that a contact wound would favor the defense more than the prosecution, so if I'm right, MOM will want to depose Dr. Bao at some point to get more explanation of the determination of "intermediate distance".

http://volusia.org/medicalexaminer/default.htm

*Please note the following article is from 1999*

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...0090_1_morgue-seminole-volusia-county-medical

http://www.tarrantcounty.com/emedicalexaminer/cwp/view.asp?A=758&Q=472118

http://chinesespeakingdoctors.net/foto.php?id=5911


I'm also curious, as I posted earlier in the thread, as to why TM's autopsy wasn't attended by any LE investigators. IDK what common procedure is for unwitnessed shootings, or how often LE attends autopsies in this area.