Trial Discussion Thread #16

[james83]

Yup ..

.. and anyway, is it really the case that they would advise someone to bring them in themselves in a car? I know that the supposed reason for this is because it would've taken longer for an ambulance to reach the scene than it would be for him to take her to the hospital in a car, but I would've thought that usually the advice would be not to move the patient in case you end up doing even more damage. Would our ambulance service in the UK ever advise someone who has been extremely seriously injured, to bring them in in the car? There are many places in this country that are quite remote, but I can't ever see a scenario when our ambulance service would actually say to someone to move the patient, pick them up, shove them into a car and drive hell for leather to the hospital.

The emergency services will have recordings of those calls though, and what was said, so he would be incredibly stupid to have lied about that bit .. but it will be interesting to see if he did or not. But, if that really is their procedure over there, then I find it really quite bizzare.

That's why i believe he made the call before he broke the door down and had seen how bad the injuries actually were, i'm convinced of it.

 

[Cherwell]

As I said yesterday we don't know for sure that this incident I occurred but hypothetically putting a dog out of its misery is not too sinister to me it would be more the lack of empathy for the owner and him not asking him first .

Exactly. Appalling behaviour just to drive off without a word. I bet it was just another enjoyable excuse for him to shoot with his gun.

 

[Viper]

Exactly. Appalling behaviour just to drive off without a word. I bet it was just another enjoyable excuse for him to shoot with his gun.

You are in my head! :smile: But also, it is weird that he recounts the story to a virtual stranger, and out of the blue at that. He is somehow very proud of what he did. But as you say, it is not something to truly be proud of IMO, more a bravado story of "I shot my pistol and killed an animal, I am powerful."

 

[MeeBee]

I agree, probably no way to know for sure. What made me think someone had sent it to her was that she seemed to be responding to it:

but it does have "by Reeva Steenkamp" under it. I don't know if just adding it to your pics in Twitter will do that, anyone know?

On twitter things are tweeted to you. If Reeva re-tweeted this or it was tweeted to her or sent to her and she was responding or decided to put up the picture it would show the sender's name with @soandso. There is nothing like that there. It's clear she posted this picture herself and wrote hahaha as the caption. I think she just thought the message on the card was funny. There's always a possibility someone sent it to her some other way, like in a text or email and she posted the picture. But she hasn't credited it to anyone so there's no way of knowing for sure. It is eerily prophetic, though.

 

[Rumpole]

The tiles were bashed down with the bat, they and the bashed in tub plate account for the first set of bangs that the neighbors heard. Finding alternatives for why they are on the floor is cool, but they were still bashed and fell off from strikes by the bat.

Regarding vibration causing it related to the two "minor" marks on the WC door, that is not likely at all; "minor" damage from just two strikes, those strikes appear to have much less force behind them and are consistent with OP trying to scare a defiant Reeva. And then the Vibration Theory? The greatest amount of energy that the door created when it was shut is delivered to the right side door frame. So if is was vibration (energy) that caused the damage to the tiles then it would have been the tiles on the right that would be on the floor.

The tiles bashed and lying on the floor, the bathtub plate bashed, the dead woman lying in the WC, the barged through bedroom doors, the damaged window in the bathroom, the victims phone found outside of the WC, and the killer's spare phone that he did not use that night set on the bathroom floor as a prop; there really is no way to explain this other than to take all of them as one. Finding an innocent excuse for them one by one overlooks what one sees with ones own eyes. IMHO

Ok

So bashing tiles with bat does sound like gunshots.

But bat on door later was so quiet that nobody heard it at all.

How come cops did not get bat mark expert Vermeulen to look for bat marks on tiles... report on how high bat blows would be etc.?
Vermeulen did inspect steel bath panel and had nothing to report.
Was OP on his stumps bashing tiles?

So if OP phones at 3:19 before even seeing injuries.... and made other calls after that. He then had to bash down door (quietly) drag body out, put on his legs, go downstairs and get car ready, go back upstairs to carry Reeva, and be carrying body by the time people arrived. He'd have to be VERY fast. Plus having alerted people, he had no idea how soon they would arrive.

 

[MeeBee]

The tiles were bashed down with the bat IMO, they and the bashed in tub plate account for the first set of bangs that the neighbors heard. Finding alternatives for why they are on the floor is cool, but they were still bashed and fell off from strikes by the bat.

Regarding vibration causing it related to the two "minor" marks on the WC door, that is not likely at all; "minor" damage from just two strikes, those strikes appear to have much less force behind them and are consistent with OP trying to scare a defiant Reeva. And then the Vibration Theory? The greatest amount of energy that the door created when it was shut is delivered to the right side door frame. So if is was vibration (energy) that caused the damage to the tiles then it would have been the tiles on the right that would be on the floor.

The tiles bashed and lying on the floor, the bathtub plate bashed, the dead woman lying in the WC, the barged through bedroom doors, the damaged window in the bathroom, the victims phone found outside of the WC, and the killer's spare phone that he did not use that night set on the bathroom floor as a prop; there really is no way to explain this other than to take all of them as one. Finding an innocent excuse for them one by one overlooks what one sees with ones own eyes. IMHO

I'm not denying the strangeness of the broken bedroom door. The tiles don't seem consistent with having been bashed with the bat though. They just don't. Why would he just nail the ones on the end like that? And why only up the side and not around? That's not how I'd expect the tiles to land if that had been beaten with the bat. The force of being struck hard would cause them to fly out and land randomly as opposed to neat and orderly. And the ones high up look too high for him to have reached. It really does look like they fell out somehow. There must be some other explanation for it and I don't think Nel is going to be the one to ask about them. If anyone is going to ask it's Roux and that's only if Oscar has a reasonable explanation for them.

 

[Gryffindor]

The tiles were bashed down with the bat IMO, they and the bashed in tub plate account for the first set of bangs that the neighbors heard. Finding alternatives for why they are on the floor is cool, but they were still bashed and fell off from strikes by the bat.

Regarding vibration causing it related to the two "minor" marks on the WC door, that is not likely at all; "minor" damage from just two strikes, those strikes appear to have much less force behind them and are consistent with OP trying to scare a defiant Reeva. And then the Vibration Theory? The greatest amount of energy that the door created when it was shut is delivered to the right side door frame. So if is was vibration (energy) that caused the damage to the tiles then it would have been the tiles on the right that would be on the floor.

The tiles bashed and lying on the floor, the bathtub plate bashed, the dead woman lying in the WC, the barged through bedroom doors, the damaged window in the bathroom, the victims phone found outside of the WC, and the killer's spare phone that he did not use that night set on the bathroom floor as a prop; there really is no way to explain this other than to take all of them as one. Finding an innocent excuse for them one by one overlooks what one sees with ones own eyes. IMHO

Imo, I concur. Beautifully put too, m'dear

 

[Gryffindor]

On twitter things are tweeted to you. If Reeva re-tweeted this or it was tweeted to her or sent to her and she was responding or decided to put up the picture it would show the sender's name with @soandso. There is nothing like that there. It's clear she posted this picture herself and wrote hahaha as the caption. I think she just thought the message on the card was funny. There's always a possibility someone sent it to her some other way, like in a text or email and she posted the picture. But she hasn't credited it to anyone so there's no way of knowing for sure. It is eerily prophetic, though.

Yeah she's just tweeted the image with text included of haha haha. She didn't RT as it would state retweeted and displays the original account.

Also it hasn't been retweeted with a comment, as quotation marks would displayed. You then add your own words before or after quote marks

 

[MeeBee]

Yeah she's just tweeted the image with text included of haha haha. She didn't RT as it would state retweeted and displays the original account.

Also it hasn't been retweeted with a comment, as quotation marks would displayed. You then add your own words before or after quote marks

Thank you, gryffindor. I find describing how twitter works to those who don't use it often one of the more challenging things, Lol.

 

[Gryffindor]

I'm not denying the strangeness of the broken bedroom door. The tiles don't seem consistent with having been bashed with the bat though. They just don't. Why would he just nail the ones on the end like that? And why only up the side and not around? That's not how I'd expect the tiles to land if that had been beaten with the bat. The force of being struck
hard would cause them to fly out and land randomly as opposed to neat and orderly. And the ones high up look too high for him to have reached. It really does look like they fell out somehow. There must be some other explanation for it and I don't think Nel is going to be the one to ask about them. If anyone is going to ask it's Roux and that's only if Oscar has a reasonable explanation for them.

Hang on a minute. . . .

The bashed metal plate on bath is directly/diagonally opposite the thin ceramic door tiles. Mid-swing at the bath plate, drawing back to hit the plate and the rebound once the plate was struck with force, would be enough latent energy for the bat to clip off those tile pieces . . .

 

[Val1]

On twitter things are tweeted to you. If Reeva re-tweeted this or it was tweeted to her or sent to her and she was responding or decided to put up the picture it would show the sender's name with @soandso. There is nothing like that there. It's clear she posted this picture herself and wrote hahaha as the caption. I think she just thought the message on the card was funny. There's always a possibility someone sent it to her some other way, like in a text or email and she posted the picture. But she hasn't credited it to anyone so there's no way of knowing for sure. It is eerily prophetic, though.

bbm - As was this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335748/Semi-naked-photos-commissioned-Reeva-Steenkamp-special-emerge-Oscar-Pistorius-court-case-delayed-August.html

Ms Steenkamp's parents also revealed unseen personal photographs and letters.

Among them was a picture painted by her as a teenager, depicting a gunman, an angel and a stairway to heaven which her parents described as a 'premonition'.

 

[MeeBee]

Hang on a minute. . . .

The bashed metal plate on bath is directly/diagonally opposite the thin ceramic door tiles. Mid-swing at the bath plate, drawing back to hit the plate and the rebound once the plate was struck with force, would be enough latent energy for the bat to clip off those tile pieces . . .

The missing tiles go too high up for the to make logical sense to me. The plate also looks like it was struck once. One blow couldn't make the tiles do all that.

 

[Gryffindor]

Thank you, gryffindor. I find describing how twitter works to those who don't use it often one of the more challenging things, Lol.

Haha You're most welcome honey And it took some editing, as you say - not easy to describe. However, I'm a Twitter aficionado as I don't do Faceache ;-) x

 

[MeeBee]

Haha You're most welcome honey And it took some editing, as you say - not easy to describe. However, I'm a Twitter aficionado as I don't do Faceache ;-) x

LOL!! Facebook gives me a headache too, now. What a mess it is and so annoying. I like the simplicity of twitter.

 

[Viper]

The 60 second call to Netcare is weird! IMO That is not enough time. Time seems to play a role in everything regarding OP fairy tale. He connected to Netcare and told them he shot a woman in the head and arm and hip and then what? They ask for his name and address to dispatch an ambulance, right? No. They ask him if she is breathing, he must have said yes or they would have talked him through CPR. But both the state's expert and OP expert determined that Reeva died in the WC almost immediately. IMO 60 seconds is not enough time for the call to Netcare; I doubt there is a voice recording and I doubt that Netcare told OP to drive her. I believe he called but he hung up on them sometime during the conversation.

 

[Rumpole]

The 60 second call to Netcare is weird! IMO That is not enough time. Time seems to play a role in everything regarding OP fairy tale. He connected to Netcare and told them he shot a woman in the head and arm and hip and then what? They ask for his name and address to dispatch an ambulance, right? No. They ask him if she is breathing, he must have said yes or they would have talked him through CPR. But both the state's expert and OP expert determined that Reeva died in the WC almost immediately. IMO 60 seconds is not enough time for the call to Netcare; I doubt there is a voice recording and I doubt that Netcare told OP to drive her. I believe he called but he hung up on them sometime during the conversation.

Nobody testified she died in toilet?

She was incapacitated by having brains blown out, but still breathing and heart still beating ... obviously, with evidence of continued arterial spurts as OP carried her down stairs. Her heart stopped once she was downstairs.

There is no problem with times... provided you do not have to twist things to fit a presumption of guilt.

The two sets of bangs heard by Stipps were gunshots and then bat on door at 3:17.
Makes sense that OP would be on the phone as soon as he dragged body to bathroom at 3:19

No problems with the timeline presented by State witnesses at all. It fits with OP's version perfectly.. and so confirms it. I am sure there will be a lot more confirmation from Defense witnesses.

 

[Gryffindor]

Nobody testified she died in toilet?

She was incapacitated by having brains blown out, but heart still beating... obviously, with evidence of continued arterial spurts as OP carried her down stairs. Her heart stopped once she was downstairs.

Arterial spurts could have been caused by Oscar carrying her and downstairs, i.e. squeezing by holding her tightly while carrying her. Also if her knees were bent over his arm, with her being in a type of concertina position; if it was easier to carry her that way. This would naturally cause large open wounds/ holes to projectile blood from them. There were 3.

*Boke

 

[whiterum]

What bothers me about the everything is fine line is this
at 3:21:11 Oscar gets of the phone from Netcare and says they told him to bring Reeva to hospital, yet at 3:22:05 he answers the call from Baba, further more at 3:26 when the Stander's and Baba arrive Oscar is only just carrying Reeva down the stairs.
Correct me if i'm wrong here but to me if your partner is laying seriously injured and you have been told to bring her in at 3:21:11 how long would it be before you had her in your car?.
There's something fishy about that period of time.

Something beyond fishy that he took it upon himself to drag her from where she lay bleeding profusely and lifted her all on his own, navigating stairs on prosthetic legs, injured shoulder with no stabilisation whatsoever of her injuries her head and legs dangling. Why, when he could have had help in minutes from security and Stander. IMO it was not RS's welfare he was concerned about at that point, it was his own and how he would be witnessed attempting to save his beloved!

 

[Gryffindor]

Does Oscar make mention of when he retrieved his phone or did he have it on him/already in bathroom immediately after the incident? Does he ever explain why Reeva's phone was in the bathroom?

 

[Viper]

The missing tiles go too high up for the to make logical sense to me. The plate also looks like it was struck once. One blow couldn't make the tiles do all that.

BIB. Actually one or two blows could do that. Remember that the bat is delivering energy to a tile and that tile disperses the energy to surrounding tiles and it travels until all of the energy has been absorbed. So hitting a single tile hard enough could and likely did (by looking at how many fell) cause more than one tile to come loose and fall off.

These tiles were all in a row, and they were much smaller that the ones to the left of them, meaning they had a smaller surface area that held them to the wall. That is why none of the larger tiles fell off, but a straight line of small tiles did.