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Trial Discussion Thread #32

Discussion in 'Oscar Pistorius' started by beach, Apr 13, 2014.

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  1. beach

    beach Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/185695...=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-broadcast-trial-ruling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/DStvs-Oscar-Pretorius-trial-TV-channel-wont-be-tabloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/97919-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-live-streaming.html

    http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-live-here-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

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  2. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    link link

    Continue discussion here...
     
  3. beach

    beach Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  4. PPKik

    PPKik New Member

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    [Brought over from last thread.]

    Whatever OP's motive or belief about the "intruder" really was, I'm not understanding how he "knew" he'd hit the person, or what the last shot has to do with his shooting three other times.

    From the photos, it looks to me that a person could have stood between the toilet and wall and possibly not have gotten hit (if they had known they were going to be shot at).

    I'm not at all suggesting anyone would have known he was going to shoot through the door, just wondering why you believe he knew he had "hit his victim with three of those hollow-nosed bullets," and what was different about the fourth shot?
     
  5. Viper

    Viper New Member

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    Cherwell, the severed artery in Reeva's right arm, that was gushing blood with every heartbeat, was the source of the blood pool at her hip, according to Nest. So her right arm was not bleeding in to the toilet.
     
  6. Karmady

    Karmady Former Member

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  7. Paysee

    Paysee New Member

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    BIB

    Witnesses have testified the screaming stopped with the 4th shot.
     
  8. Nausicaa

    Nausicaa New Member

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    My main point, PPKik, was that the situation gets worse for OP with each new shot as each one is very likely to kill the person, whoever it is, behind the door. But he can only risk killing someone in necessary self-defence. So what is different about the fourth shot is that there had already been three previous ones. That's all. He's not asking the court to find that he shot in self defence once but that he shot in self defence four distinct times. And as a matter of fact he successfully "killed" his victim several times over IYSWIM.

    As to whether he knew he had already scored three hits - or at least one incapacitating hit - when he fired the fourth time... indeed the court may decide that this is not certain. But the evidence that he did know - which I personally find overwhelming - would be the inevitable audible results of his shots: at the very least gurgling in the throat, thud of falling body, sound of blood spurting, etc. And if the court believes witness evidence that someone other than OP was screaming, the cessation of those screams.

    But let me put it to you the other way round. If OP is stricken with panic and firing away for dear life into the door, why did he stop at four rounds? Obviously because he knew that that was enough. What new factor intervened at the fourth shot that immediately calmed his panic so that he could safely take measures to enter the room which a short time before had housed the mythical creature he was so afraid of? I can't see any decisive factor that did not already apply to a significant extent before the fourth shot.

    It would of course have been interesting to ask the expert witnesses whether it might have been possible for a hypothetical intruder in the W.C. not to be hit. I don't know. I think they would have - did? - agreed that there would undoubtedly have been audible signs that the person was hit.
     
  9. Carmelita

    Carmelita Former Member

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    A lot of people (reporters) confuse or use automatic and semi-automatic interchangeably. Oscar's gun was semi-automatic which means once he chambered the first bullet he would not have to cock the gun again to get a bullet in the chamber so he could shoot by simply repeatedly pulling the trigger. If he just pulled the trigger and kept it depressed there would have only been one shot fired.

    The other gun in question was fully automatic meaning that once a bullet was chambered and the trigger depressed bullets would continue to be fired without any repeated action on the trigger other than continuous depression.

    Is that what you are asking? Sorry if I'm not answering your question.
     
  10. Nausicaa

    Nausicaa New Member

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    This is true, Paysee, but I assumed that PPKik was discounting those witnesses as obviously if the person in the W.C. was screaming when he shot, OP is guilty of murder.
     
  11. Carmelita

    Carmelita Former Member

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    No one is certain about where the pool of blood was from other than one of Reevas wounds.
     
  12. Karmady

    Karmady Former Member

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    It would IF I knew that the Z88 referenced in the opinion was fully automatic. But when I search the gun in the opinion (the Z88) ALL of the links come up semi-automatic. What am I missing. Thanks for helping me :)
     
  13. crasshopper

    crasshopper Verified Expert

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    Brought over from the last thread
    Hi Viper,

    Just to clarify, I said he MAY have used commerically available systems supplemented by personal analysis.

    I only just learned of these the other day when investigating which is why I mentioned them.

    As for the specific source, I don't remember nor did I bookmark. Looking this up again just on google, I found these. None of which was a source I saw the other night though.


    http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/BloodSpatter/BloodSpatter_ShenBrostow.pdf

    http://www.iabpa.org/uploads/files/iabpa%20publications/June%202012%20JBPA.pdf

    http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Law%20Enforcement/Forensics%20and%20Investigation/Death%20Scene%20Investigation/Bloodstain%20Pattern%20Analysis%20-%20An%20Introduction%20to%20Crime%20Scene%20Reconstruction.pdf


    Hope you find those useful!

    edit:
    IIRC I saw them referred to in the Journal Forensic Medicine and 1 one of the books I used.
     
  14. Viper

    Viper New Member

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    The gun that the other shooter used was available in a plain semi automatic version like OPs, but it was also made as a variant where you can also select on the gun to have it fire three bullets with a single pull of the trigger, or fully automatic where it fires until the magazine is empty while holding down the trigger. Hope that makes sense, I can't write a huge post at the moment. :smile:
     
  15. Carmelita

    Carmelita Former Member

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    I am guessing that the owner modified it to make it fully automatic.
     
  16. BritsKate

    BritsKate Past mistakes should teach you to create a wonderf

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    Coincidental, isn't it, when he couldn't hear the screams/didn't know if Reeva had screamed?

    4 shots. Just enough to stop the screaming, no more or less, according to the State.

    But for the defence, why just four? How did Oscar know the threat had been eliminated if he couldn't hear the screams and was aiming towards an area not necessarily consistent with death? Then again, he wasn't aiming and those closely clustered shots are another coincidence.

    JMO


    Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.
     
  17. PPKik

    PPKik New Member

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    Thanks for your explanation, Nausicaa, to my questions in your above post. I see, now, exactly what you are saying.

    The one thing I do not agree with is that screaming by the victim could have been heard by anyone after the first shot.

    I don't know what the ear witnesses heard or did not hear, but I do not believe if Reeva was hit by the second shot, and not the first (all of which it has been testified to would have been fatal), that she could have been screaming while being shot multiple times.

    Even if the wounds had not been fatal, it defies my imagination that people from so far way, being woken up, would be able to identify screams through, or simultaneously, (presumably) with rapid-fire gunshots.
     
  18. Carmelita

    Carmelita Former Member

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    I can't find anything that verifies that this gun came with a variable setting do you have a link?
     
  19. Emz73

    Emz73 New Member

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    Yes! Isn't it a coincidence that he stopped screaming and shooting at the very same time as the "intruder" was killed. What made him not shoot a couple more? Or one less? He was just wildly accidentally firing into a door after all.
    He MUST of known he'd done the job!!! He could SEE he had killed someone or heard he killed someone.
    Or as it is obvious Reeva STOPPED screaming.
     
  20. Emz73

    Emz73 New Member

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    They heard a women screaming right up until the last shot.
     
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