Trial Discussion Thread #38 - 14.05.13 Day 31

[lithgow1]

The quote below from the 'shrink' article was something I was a bit surprised Mr Nel didn't pursue - I think there is a big difference - as a simple example, it would seem if you were driving a car and crashed and a passenger was killed you would have 'caused their death' but if you hit a pedestrian and caused their death the 'you killed them'. JMO.

'She claimed, uniquely, that distinguishing between “I killed her” and “I caused her death” was a purely legal concept, though psychologists could see significant differences here.

 

[lithgow1]

Another interesting one.

http://www.health24.com/Columnists/Inside-Oscars-support-group-20140508

 

[DebinGA]

Let's say the State reopens their case, psych is open for sure, but what other areas? I'm hopeful ballistics will be one, but I am not certain that it is needed. So if you consider not what the State can address, but what they can address and need to readdress, what would those things be?

Have Mangena explain why OP was lying about finding Reeva sitting on the wc floor? And about the impossibility via WW of Reeva falling backward, getting hit in the head as she fell, yet ending up with her head facedown on toilet seat?

 

[Cherwell]

You can't polish a turd :smile:

Apparently you can :floorlaugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

 

[rachael123]

Thanks Lithgow1.:seeya:

Someone can probably explain it better but my understanding is that now the defence has opened the door on a possible psych disorder that could be used as a factor in the court's decision on degree of guilt and as mitigation during sentencing Nel can argue to be allowed to put his own psych expert on the stand. One of the police's psych experts was in court during all of OP's testiminy and cross-examination and I guess it would be him.

A couple of lawyers on here predicted weeks ago that this could happen (the re-open if defence brought in psych factors) and it would basically be a given that this would be approved. Hope this is still the case - in fact you would think it more likely if the defence have introduced this element. Personally I'd prefer that as I'd love to hear what the state's guy has to say about Mr P. And now, after all that, someone has probably answered your question in one sentence!

 

[rachael123]

Got it.:seeya:

SA calls the State's rebuttal 'reopening'. They need to motion the court for permission to reopen, in order to rebut the defence CIC (case in chief).

 

[soozieqtips]

Apparently you can :floorlaugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

Lol. Too funny!!!

 

[Sha]

V: People with GAD aren't dangerous as such. People with GAD probably shouldn't possess firearms. That makes them dangerous....makes that person at risk of being involved with violent incidents. Unfortunately, persons with GAD are more likely to want to purchase a firearm...

I have no desire whatsoever to purchase a firearm!! Ignorance about mental illness still runs rampant, I see.

 

[soozieqtips]

I have no desire whatsoever to purchase a firearm!! Ignorance about mental illness still runs rampant, I see.

It was the psychiatrist who made the comment that people with GAD are more likely to want to purchase a firearm.

So what did you think of the rest of her testimony?

 

[DebinGA]

OP blamed his boat accident in 2009 on submerged pier:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/exclusive---oscar-pistorius-talks-387698

OP's trial testimony about the boat accident: http://citizen.co.za/156390/2009-boat-accident-recalled-oscar-trial/

Eye witnesses to boat accident dispute OP's testimony:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/oscar-pistorius-lie-stand/story?id=23452254

Dr. Vorster mentioned OP's 2009 boat accident and noted he'd suffered a slight concussion
.......................................................................................................

Hope Nel revisits the boat accident in rebuttal.

 

[Viper]

Thanks!

Also in that same e-zine was an article entitled:
Did Reeva Look Like Oscar's Mother?

http://www.health24.com/Mental-Health/News/Did-Reeva-look-like-Oscars-mother-20140414

The resemblance was quite shocking, I must say.

That is possible, but OP seemed to have an eye for blondes. AFAIK. His newest girlfriend is a light colored brunette though.

My mother is a criminolgist, she is very slender and has blonde hair. She was delighted that my first high school girlfriend was a leggy blonde; and she told me back then that men do typically seek out women that resemble their mothers. She never said it, but she must have been in complete shock when I married a lovely Brazilian woman with the darkest brown hair imaginable! LOL!!! So much for all of that criminology psychological profile stuff.

 

[nastasya]

Here's a brief summary of this murder "mystery" according to OP:

A woman gets up in the middle of the night to pee. This seemingly normal act that happens every night billions of times around the world caused:

-4 shots to be fired,
- killer to scream like a woman, a man, and a woman and man at the same time,
-2 doors to be broken down.
-5 witnesses to wake up and NOT hear a woman scream but think they did,
-3 witnesses who live farthest away not hear the shooting, but think they did.
-No police to be called.

OP must be so delusional that he truly believe that people are that stupid for him to even entertain the idea of coming up with his "version" of that night. That alone should be grounds for a psych evaluation.

 

[soozieqtips]

Here's a brief summary of this murder "mystery" according to OP:

A woman gets up in the middle of the night to pee. This seemingly normal act that happens every night billions of times around the world caused:

-4 shots to be fired,
- killer to scream like a woman, a man, and a woman and man at the same time,
-2 doors to be broken down.
-5 witnesses to wake up and NOT hear a woman scream but think they did,
-3 witnesses who live farthest away not hear the shooting, but think they did.
-No police to be called.

OP must be so delusional that he truly believe that people are that stupid for him to even entertain the idea of coming up with his "version" of that night. That alone should be grounds for a psych evaluation.

BBM - Definitely, and that's without all those mean and nasty enemies (including Dr Stipp) who have lied under oath and been out to get him... for, um... no reason.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I tend to think that Masipa will issue the Order. I do not want her to, not completely anyway, for my own selfish reasons. Namely, I would like this trial to end sooner rather than later.

I base my opinion that the Order will be issued because of my respect for Mr. Nel. I don't believe that he would pursue this if it were not very important to the prosecution; to remove any claim of diminished capacity that could be considered and affect the decision of his guilt or innocence and the length of his sentence. In addition, to remove an appellate opportunity that would certainly follow.

I can clearly see why you/most of us would like the possible claim of diminished capacity not to figure in sentencing but "what if" he is assessed and judged to have a mental problem. Many of us here seem to think he has. He could spend a few years in a hospital (I have just read of a murderer whose Defence pleaded diminished capacity who was released after 3 years, though it was in the UK) and then be let out to enjoy the rest of his life as he wishes. That would be way short of what he deserves, ie a life sentence and no doubt in better conditions than an ordinary prison (maybe I am wrong there - lol). I would rather see him stuck in jail for many years for his hideous crime. Given that choice (though I appreciate it is an unknown), presently, I tend to hope that the assessment request fails but I may change my mind after reading a little more about it.

Perhaps I am missing something important here?? I highly value the legal competence of so many of you and consider myself "legally illiterate" in comparison.

 

[Zim]

OP blamed his boat accident in 2009 on submerged pier:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/exclusive---oscar-pistorius-talks-387698

OP's trial testimony about the boat accident: http://citizen.co.za/156390/2009-boat-accident-recalled-oscar-trial/

Eye witnesses to boat accident dispute OP's testimony:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/oscar-pistorius-lie-stand/story?id=23452254

Dr. Vorster mentioned OP's 2009 boat accident and noted he'd suffered a slight concussion
.......................................................................................................

Hope Nel revisits the boat accident in rebuttal.

This happened right in front of my sister's Vaal Palace 'unit'. I can assure you the event was not investigated correctly....Shame on SAPS !

 

[lithgow1]

[video=youtube;UTrOR94WjsI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTrOR94WjsI[/video]

Re the psych stuff. Just started watching.

 

[soozieqtips]

I can clearly see why you/most of us would like the possible claim of diminished capacity not to figure in sentencing but "what if" he is assessed and judged to have a mental problem. Many of us here seem to think he has. He could spend a few years in a hospital (I have just read of a murderer whose Defence pleaded diminished capacity who was released after 3 years, though it was in the UK) and then be let out to enjoy the rest of his life as he wishes.

~snipped~

If OP ended up in an institution instead of jail, I would hope that upon his release, he'd be forced to stand trial again. If he's released, it could only be because he's 'better' and not a danger to society anymore - so there's no logical reason why he shouldn't have to stand trial again. My thoughts only, and not based on any facts.

 

[jay-jay]

I can clearly see why you/most of us would like the possible claim of diminished capacity not to figure in sentencing but "what if" he is assessed and judged to have a mental problem. Many of us here seem to think he has. He could spend a few years in a hospital (I have just read of a murderer whose Defence pleaded diminished capacity who was released after 3 years, though it was in the UK) and then be let out to enjoy the rest of his life as he wishes. That would be way short of what he deserves, ie a life sentence and no doubt in better conditions than an ordinary prison (maybe I am wrong there - lol). I would rather see him stuck in jail for many years for his hideous crime. Given that choice (though I appreciate it is an unknown), presently, I tend to hope that the assessment request fails but I may change my mind after reading a little more about it.

Perhaps I am missing something important here?? I highly value the legal competence of so many of you and consider myself "legally illiterate" in comparison.

I don't think he actually has, apart from NPD which isn't something which would lead him to be put in a mental hospital or avoid a jail sentence. I don't personally believe he is paranoid, or suffers from GAD or anything else like that, I think he has anger management issues and an inflated sense of self importance and that's all. None of anything that has been said about his real history (his real one and not the fairy stories) lead me to believe he is paranoid.

 

[aoibhinn]

All I have to say is you gotta love any news organisation who boasts a headline like this: "We’ve been punked. The Oscar trial gets truly ridiculous."

Well spotted. Kate! :seeya:The article was in the sidebar of the page under 'Most Read'.

We’ve been punked. The Oscar trial gets truly ridiculous.
http://www.health24.com/Columnists/Weve-been-punked-The-Oscar-trial-gets-truly-ridiculous-20140509

My new favourite blog on the case, with insightful gems

on the anaesthetist,

She seemed content to accept Oscar’s unsupported claim that Reeva slept from early evening till shortly before her death and would apparently have been happy to operate on Ms. Steenkamp at 3 a.m. She also seemingly considers yoga to be a form of vigorous exercise.

on the Probation Officer

She spoke like a star-struck Pistorian, speaking as a naïve amateur, and without objectivity, as she accepted and believed every word he uttered without question or doubt.

She kept emphasizing how “heart-broken” he was, and how much he had wept. She admitted that despite her claim to 24 years of experience of something or other, this was the first and only time she had ever met someone so soon after they’d killed someone, and had no relevant experience. She managed to make Dixon seem profound.

(while managing to get a dig in at Dixon),

and on Wollie ...

There should have been a drum-roll, but finally Mr. Wolmerans, the legendary ballistics expert, actually did take the stand. There have been so many sightings and reports he was about to appear, he seemed at time more like the Yeti, the Abominable Snowman of the Himalayas, than someone any of us would live long enough to hear from.

Light-hearted and irreverent, but very true.

 

[Interested Bystander]

~snipped~

If OP ended up in an institution instead of jail, I would hope that upon his release, he'd be forced to stand trial again. If he's released, it could only be because he's 'better' and not a danger to society anymore - so there's no logical reason why he shouldn't have to stand trial again. My thoughts only, and not based on any facts.

Thanks, yes, I think BritsKate pointed this out to me a few threads back. The case I referred to was not tried again (hence my concern) but she did go on to murder again and that time the Jury threw out the Defence's plea of Diminished Responsibility and she was jailed for life.