Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

[soozieqtips]

There is something very strange about the way Masipa stopped so suddenly today, she seemed right on the verge of her decision regarding Culpable Homicide and pretty much just got up and left.

I got back from work all ready to watch a further few hours of the verdict, when for no apparent reason, she just adjourned till tomorrow. It was weird. Maybe she suddenly had a lightbulb moment and realised her decision to acquit him of Dolus Eventualis was made in error!

 

[Cloen]

I felt for reevas mum and dad today so bitterly disappointed at the system
I hope the judge pulls another surprise tomorrow by jailing op for max time...alas........

I second this. I am also sure there were other witnesses in Silverwoods who didn't want to get involved, and I don't just mean Frank, in my opinion.
I also think that if Oscar had only fired one shot this Judge would have acquitted him. She can't now because he fired 4 shots, as she would come under a lot of criticism as to her professional Judgement, it would be too obvious. I didn't want to be cynical about the Judge's Ruling, as I thought she was quiet, calm and collected and had taken it all in , and would do the right thing for Reeva. It has sadly gone completely the other way today, and I am so very disappointed in her , the Assessors and sad for Reeva's family.

Also, Dr Vorster and Professor Derman, the Defence witnesses, conceded to Nel during Cross examination that Oscar fired shots at the door to kill the Intruder , (or words to that effect) I don't know why the Judge didn't just take Oscar out for Coffee and got him to sign on the dotted line to say he's free , get his lunch from Court, and go off home.

 

[Really?]

Ikr? I would like J Masipa to give her opinion as to why OP shot 4 times, no more, no less. This surely will give insight to her thinking. jmo

I think she bought into the gun fired before he could think

 

[Carol70]

There is something very strange about the way Masipa stopped so suddenly today, she seemed right on the verge of her decision regarding Culpable Homicide and pretty much just got up and left.

I saw a few comments today that perhaps the judge was guided towards the error of her ways and her blantant mistake today...some are speculating that there may be a redirection of her verdict tomorrow...she took a long time to come back to court after lunch, sat for 15 mins and then abruptly called it a day. Wonder what happened in chambers??

 

[soozieqtips]

I saw a few comments today that perhaps the judge was guided towards the error of her ways and her blantant mistake today...some are speculating that there may be a redirection of her verdict tomorrow...she took a long time to come back to court after lunch, sat for 15 mins and then abruptly called it a day. Wonder what happened in chambers??

BBM - is that even possible once she's acquitted him of that charge?

Do you have a link to any of the comments? I'd be interested to see some. Thanks.

 

[Cloen]

Perhaps it was time to get advice on what she was going to say next and how to say it. I got the impression she has consulted someone on her Judgement- could she have a Guru with more Trial experience to consult ? She seemed quick to get going today , and she could have completed it had she carried on from what I could tell but she decided not to, for some reason.

 

[Carol70]

BBM - is that even possible once she's acquitted him of that charge?

Do you have a link to any of the comments? I'd be interested to see some. Thanks.

I actually have no idea. I can't imagine it's possible but maybe not unheard of. Maybe she was just overwhelmed when she realised her error...as it was a mistake of epic proportions. But then again, surely her assessors would have discussed this with her prior to her reading the judgement...it's been a hellava day lol.

 

[james83]

I saw a few comments today that perhaps the judge was guided towards the error of her ways and her blantant mistake today...some are speculating that there may be a redirection of her verdict tomorrow...she took a long time to come back to court after lunch, sat for 15 mins and then abruptly called it a day. Wonder what happened in chambers??

Good to see you back Carol.
Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in chambers, bet Nel was seething.
A redirection would certainly be a fitting end to this totally bonkers trial that's for sure.

 

[Giles]

There is something very strange about the way Masipa stopped so suddenly today, she seemed right on the verge of her decision regarding Culpable Homicide and pretty much just got up and left.

Yes, I wonder if it was for dramatic reasons or whether she was about to embark on a new line of judgement which she wouldn't have time to finish today.

 

[Really?]

Did she disregard the fact that Reeva has eaten around two hours earlier and not the eight hours earlier as
stated by OP?

Yes, she basically said this case proves it is not an exact science. Bwahahahaha

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Does anyone on here play Chess?

If so, you will know where I am going with this. If not - go do some Sleuthing.

We might be witnessing a very complex game here.

The end game will not be tomorrow in my opinion. The extended lunch break today was significant.

Judges do not cut short summations & ignore testimony by accident, unless they understand the end game.

 

[soozieqtips]

OP said he failed to see how he could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder.

Judge Masipa said the evidence failed to establish OP had the requisite intention to kill the deceased, let alone with premeditation.

I thought some of her phrasing sounded familiar :smile:

 

[fox1lady]

It was weird. Maybe she suddenly had a lightbulb moment and realised her decision to acquit him of Dolus Eventualis was made in error!

That's exactly what I thought and then I read up on Dolus and CH and realised that she was probably right in the first place.

Everyone in the courtroom looked shocked by her sudden adjournment, it was quite bizarre. Roux whispered something to Oldwage who then laughed... I wonder what's occurred!

Maybe she went to check that the deposit was in the bank before giving the verdict for CH

 

[Carol70]

Good to see you back Carol.
Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in chambers, bet Nel was seething.
A redirection would certainly be a fitting end to this totally bonkers trial that's for sure.

Lol thanks James, have been around here and there but I rested my case on about thread 25 haha so had nothing more to really contribute.

 

[Emz73]

That's exactly what I thought and then I read up on Dolus and CH and realised that she was probably right in the first place.

Everyone in the courtroom looked shocked by her sudden adjournment, it was quite bizarre. Roux whispered something to Oldwage who then laughed... I wonder what's occurred!

Maybe she went to check that the deposit was in the bank before giving the verdict for CH

how do you mean she was right in the first place?

 

[fox1lady]

how do you mean she was right in the first place?

I meant I was starting to buy into the view that Masipa had misunderstood the test for Dolus Eventualis and that Nel would appeal... I'm not so sure now after reading the comparisons after reading a link a couple pages back

 

[Reader]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...a023-1d61f7f31a05_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop

SENTENCING: A SECOND TRIAL

If there is any conviction, prosecutors and Pistorius’ defense lawyers will have the chance to present witnesses in a separate sentencing hearing before Masipa decides if and how long Pistorius goes to prison. In what amounts to a second trial, prosecutors could call members of Steenkamp’s family, maybe her mother and father, to testify for sentencing. Defense lawyers might call psychiatrists to argue for a lighter sentence........

Culpable homicide has five years if a gun is used, but this can be increased or decreased depending on circumstances and has a maximum sentence of 15 years in prison. For example, the fact that Pistorius fired multiple times into a small space and didn’t fire a warning shot first could count against him.

 

[Giles]

A well taken picture of Barry Steenkamp in Court today.

 

[soozieqtips]

So he fired 4 shots 'without' thinking - but he didn't fire a warning shot... because he was thinking.

Thinking about he might get injured.

 

[Susza]

I understand the difference between whether someone "did foresee" or "should have foreseen" in determining Dolus versus Culpa but I wonder if there may be confusion about what it is that Judge Masipa is saying she is testing.

Is she testing whether OP did foresee a) that it was the deceased (Reeva) in the toilet or b) that firing 4 bullets into the toilet would have likely killed the person inside the toilet or both? I think she tests a) and concludes that he didn't foresee it was Reeva; she doesn't test b). She says OP knew it was intruders in the toilet and yet is not applying the test to them. This is surely Dolus.

I fail to see how applying the test to b) would result in anything but Dolus.

Thank you so much.
You wrote here exactly what I was unable to express.