Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[jilly]

This is back in January of this year. Maybe they've waited for the outcome of the trial.



PARALYMPIAN Oscar Pistorius's lawyers are reportedly negotiating an out-of-court settlement with the parents of slain girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

The settlement could net them around 2 million rand ($209,000), News 24 reports.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...eenkamps-parents/story-fnii0hmo-1226805481685

$200,00? What a joke. Besides, it's not about money, it's about justice for them which has been denied.
I hope they are strong enough to go through a civil trial. How does anyone do that though with broken hearts.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

This here is the first I've even seen about OP's new girlfriend, but it is from back in Feb. 2014. Did anyone see this woman in court? Does anyone know if they are still dating?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570334/Revealed-Oscar-Pistorius-dating-19-year-old-student-paramedic-awaits-trial-accused-murdering-ex-girlfriend.html

 

[AW2B]

Correct me if I'm wrong..I don't think judge Masipa talked about the bathroom window or even thought about it..

In his story Pistorius claimed that the noise he heard sounded like someone was opening the bathroom window..then when he got to the bathroom he saw the window was indeed open. He was trying to justify his actions as told in his story. HOWEVER..we know there were no intruders..so who opened that window?? There are only two possibilities (either one indicates deception which I think Masipa missed entirely):

1- He opened the window to stage the scene to fit his story..

OR

2- He went to bed leaving the window open..if so..this indicates that the so called fear and paranoia about intruders/burglars is nothing but a lie. He was trying to explain why he SUPPOSEDLY jumped to conclusion that it was an intruder without checking if Reeva was still in bed----> "I panicked". So the so called PARANOID Pistorius slept with his balcony doors open and with bathroom window open..what a liar! He killed Reeva in cold blood..

 

[IndianSummer]

That Oscar Pistorius lived in fear of intruders has largely been accepted. But Reeva Steenkamp's claims of having been 'scared' of her boyfriend have seemingly been overlooked. How can we treat two manifestations of the same emotion so differently?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/11...s-one-fear-count-for-more-than-the-other.html

Bravo

 

[turaj]

This here is the first I've even seen about OP's new girlfriend, but it is from back in Feb. 2014. Did anyone see this woman in court? Does anyone know if they are still dating?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570334/Revealed-Oscar-Pistorius-dating-19-year-old-student-paramedic-awaits-trial-accused-murdering-ex-girlfriend.html

I'm guessing they still are...she no doubt thinks he is a "star" and she is just a kid. Reading that her father may attend the court proceedings is really too much...what is wrong with people. The guy kills his last girlfriend and dad thinks this is great for his daughter....$$$ talking again...perceives OP to be a great catch for his girl.

 

[JudgeJudi]

After Masipa delivered her judgment I posted something to the effect that maybe she would redeem herself by giving him the maximum sentencing. I now retract that completely. I was only thinking of punishment when I posted that and overlooked the obvious. This is not just about punishment.

Based on her verdict, she has now set a precedent that:

• It’s okay to lie continuously in court and still be believed
• it’s okay to believe that tears mean genuine remorse
• it’s okay to shoot someone behind a closed door
• it’s okay to use excessive force
• it’s okay to throw out the testimony of an entire case built on circumstantial evidence even when the experts were the best and virtually unchallenged
• it’s okay to prefer the evidence of unreliable biased so-called “experts”
• it’s okay to totally disregard the evidence of a number of independent ear witnesses who all heard similar things at similar times and say they were all mistaken because of what they may have heard or seen after the event
• it’s okay to kill intimate partners and find an accused guilty of an offence which allows a killer to get a suspended sentence as well as providing another explanation on how you can do it and get away with it – a silhouette next to the bed
• it’s okay to be in possession of illegal ammunition for years

I believe the State must appeal for the following reasons:

“One of the country's leading criminal law experts, Advocate Mannie Witz, said Masipa's judgment needed to be considered by a senior bench to provide clarity for South African courts.

The National Prosecuting Authority doesn't have to appeal, but in all honesty, with the eyes of the world on us and the sharp debate among the legal fraternity about her interpretations, the country deserves clarity," Witz said. "Only the Supreme Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein can provide that."

“James Grant, professor of criminal law at the University of the Witwatersrand, said it was unlikely the NPA and prosecutor Gerrie Nel would be driven to act only by pressure from the public or from the legal fraternity.

Having said that, Nel is under a duty to see that justice is done," Grant said.

The provisions of the law that allow the prosecution to appeal an error of law are clearly conceived to allow for justice to ultimately prevail. I expect Nel will take this step for these reasons, which are, in my view, the right reasons."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/special/...dge-under-fire-while-state-is-urged-to-appeal

 

[Viper]

Yep..a month in the making and I too felt like she had not seen those papers...she often stopped and "re-phrased" things. This seemed very odd to me.

To me, it seemed like she was describing Dolus Eventualis towards the end of the first day as she was getting to Culpable Homicide and she recognized that and snapped to "legal reality" and then quickly stopped reading. I was surprised when she came back on the second day without making substantial changes, quite frankly. So yes, IMO her legal assistants or the assessors or both wrote the decision and that was her first time reading that piece of garbage.

 

[Cloen]

"Pistorius family joy

However, Roux is understood to be very hesitant to appeal – even if Pistorius is sentenced to time in prison, said the family insider. But his family does not expect this to happen.

A close family source said his lawyers were convinced Pistorius might avoid jail time altogether and be handed a suspended sentence instead.

The insider said Pistorius’ uncle, Arnold, had told them it was a “very good judgment and they shouldn’t mess with it”.

“They realise they were lucky to get away with culpable homicide.”

Pistorius spent Friday night with his sister, Aimee, away from the home of uncle Arnold and aunt Lois Pistorius where he has been staying since the shooting.

Despite looks of relief on Friday, the family remain worried about the sentencing and the possibility of an appeal."

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/state-vs-oscar/
published 14 September,

Something tells me the recent trail related tweets from the Pisto clan will cease for the foreseeable- they won't want to be further antagonising public feeling.

I thought the terms and conditions of Oscar being on Bail was that he continued to reside at his Uncle's address? (the Judge even read out his Uncle's address in Court didn't she ?) So what was Oscar doing staying overnight with his sister ? We heard during Court on Friday that Judge also asked Roux to ensure that he spoke to Uncle Arnold (who she referred to as 'looking after Oscar) to ensure complications didn't arise again ?

I assumed the Judge was referring to the fact that Oscar went out and was involved in a brawl at that nightclub during the Trial ,and that this was the 'complication' she was referring to , as the Uncle was supposed to be looking after Oscar during the Trial as part of his bail (and I read that this was a night when the Uncle was away on business, and another Uncle was 'looking after' Oscar ) which Nel raised as one of the reasons Oscar's bail should not continue- but that he'd also sold his properties suggesting he had nothing to stop him now being a flight risk with no assets in SA.

It seems that Oscar doesn't have to follow the 'rules' regarding many things in this Trial, sorry, but just cynical now about this whole matter, and even the Legal rules do not apply to Oscar, even the Judge seemed to misinterpret the Law regarding what constitutes Dolus Eventualis and illegal possession of ammunition.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

After Masipa delivered her judgment I posted something to the effect that maybe she would redeem herself by giving him the maximum sentencing. I now retract that completely. I was only thinking of punishment when I posted that and overlooked the obvious. This is not just about punishment.

Based on her verdict, she has now set a precedent that:

• It’s okay to lie continuously in court and still be believed
• it’s okay to believe that tears mean genuine remorse
• it’s okay to shoot someone behind a closed door
• it’s okay to use excessive force
• it’s okay to throw out the testimony of an entire case built on circumstantial evidence even when the experts were the best and virtually unchallenged
• it’s okay to prefer the evidence of unreliable biased so-called “experts”
• it’s okay to totally disregard the evidence of a number of independent ear witnesses who all heard similar things at similar times and say they were all mistaken because of what they may have heard or seen after the event
• it’s okay to kill intimate partners and find an accused guilty of an offence which allows a killer to get a suspended sentence as well as providing another explanation on how you can do it and get away with it – a silhouette next to the bed

I believe the State must appeal for the following reasons:

“One of the country's leading criminal law experts, Advocate Mannie Witz, said Masipa's judgment needed to be considered by a senior bench to provide clarity for South African courts.

The National Prosecuting Authority doesn't have to appeal, but in all honesty, with the eyes of the world on us and the sharp debate among the legal fraternity about her interpretations, the country deserves clarity," Witz said. "Only the Supreme Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein can provide that."

“James Grant, professor of criminal law at the University of the Witwatersrand, said it was unlikely the NPA and prosecutor Gerrie Nel would be driven to act only by pressure from the public or from the legal fraternity.

Having said that, Nel is under a duty to see that justice is done," Grant said.

The provisions of the law that allow the prosecution to appeal an error of law are clearly conceived to allow for justice to ultimately prevail. I expect Nel will take this step for these reasons, which are, in my view, the right reasons."

http://www.timeslive.co.za/special/...dge-under-fire-while-state-is-urged-to-appeal

Yes, J Masipa has made a terrible mistake which will have severe consequences in the future.

From your link ty, -

Gerrie Nel -

"We have all lost cases ... we listened to Masipa, with the greatest of respect, and the finding just didn't make sense.

"We will do what we always do. Calm down, sit around a table and look at the facts and then fight back," said the senior member of the prosecuting team.


June Steenkamp, mother of Reeva, sounded exhausted when she spoke to the Sunday Times yesterday afternoon. "I am just so tired of this whole thing, we honestly cannot take it anymore."

 

[PrimeSuspect]

HERE COMES OSCAR PISTORIUS' 4TH VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED 13-14 FEB, 2013



Pistorius' manager Peet van Zyl told The Guardian that the sprinter would be publishing a book in order to "get his side of the story on paper".

There is no minimum sentence for culpable manslaughter in South Africa, leaving open the possibility that Pistorius could again compete at the Paralympics.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/...blish-book-agent-confirms#wGOLDU2GjcqsmCxi.99

 

[JudgeJudi]

Someone should appraise Nel about OP and Aimee spending the night somewhere else so his bail could be revoked. Nah, the family would deny it as would the people wherever they stayed. Another "win" for OP.

 

[Cherwell]

After Masipa delivered her judgment I posted something to the effect that maybe she would redeem herself by giving him the maximum sentencing. I now retract that completely. I was only thinking of punishment when I posted that and overlooked the obvious. This is not just about punishment.

Based on her verdict, she has now set a precedent that:

• It’s okay to lie continuously in court and still be believed
• it’s okay to believe that tears mean genuine remorse
• it’s okay to shoot someone behind a closed door
• it’s okay to use excessive force
• it’s okay to throw out the testimony of an entire case built on circumstantial evidence even when the experts were the best and virtually unchallenged
• it’s okay to prefer the evidence of unreliable biased so-called “experts”
• it’s okay to totally disregard the evidence of a number of independent ear witnesses who all heard similar things at similar times and say they were all mistaken because of what they may have heard or seen after the event
• it’s okay to kill intimate partners and find an accused guilty of an offence which allows a killer to get a suspended sentence as well as providing another explanation on how you can do it and get away with it – a silhouette next to the bed

You missed out that it's now OK to be in possession of illegal items. That was possibly the most baffling decision of all.

 

[JudgeJudi]

There's no way in the wide world that OP and the family can't be aware of the monumental backlash from people everywhere. If I were in their shoes I'd be "terrified My Lady", and unlike OP during the trial, they'll all have time to think and sweat pretty heavily I'd imagine that maybe he won't be getting a suspended sentence after all.

Now it's our turn to be raying:

 

[Cloen]

HERE COMES OSCAR PISTORIUS' 4TH VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED 13-14 FEB, 2013



Pistorius' manager Peet van Zyl told The Guardian that the sprinter would be publishing a book in order to "get his side of the story on paper".

There is no minimum sentence for culpable manslaughter in South Africa, leaving open the possibility that Pistorius could again compete at the Paralympics.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/...blish-book-agent-confirms#wGOLDU2GjcqsmCxi.99

I think the Judge should make a Ruling that Oscar should not benefit financially from any stories to the media and press- out of respect to the Steenkamp Family having admitted killing their daughter - and the fact that the Pistorius family can tell media in press conferences that Oscar's been cleared of Murder blah blah, but they omitted the fact that he was found Guilty of Culpable Homicide - Negligent Killing of Reeva and that the Judge thought he was a poor witness, - what happened in that Courtroom was that she just didn't believe the Prosecution's Case to be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[cynic]

RSBM



Thank you so much cynic, reveals what a travesty this trial was when Masipa's logic is warped. OP shot 4 bullets into a tiny closet, a toilet cubicle, yet she believes he couldn't foresee he would kill anyone???!!!!!!!! And that he acted in putative self defence is a joke. OP never saw an intruder entering the house, the toilet, he didn't hear anyone threatening him, (oh yes, maybe Reeva, :thinking
The sentencing in Oliveira's case is questionable too, so little time for cold blooded murder. :no:

Another trial I've spoken of before, Jewell Crossberg, a wealthy landowner who became angry with his black employees out on his property, shot and killed one man and shot several times at the other men. His story was he thought they were baboons??!!!!!

After the trial took years to eventuate while he was out on bail, which was then extended while pending an appeal of his murder conviction, he ended up spending a total of 3 years in jail???!!!

I just finished reading through the Jewell Crossberg appeal. http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2008/13.html
Clearly a travesty of justice superseded now by the OP travesty.
In terms of why Masipa believes that OP did not foresee the possibility of the death of whoever was behind the door, it’s because OP told her he didn’t, and it’s obvious that she believes essentially every word out of his mouth.
Masipa:
"The accused stated that he never thought of the possibility that he could kill people in the toilet. He considered however that thinking back retrospectively, it would be a probability that someone could be killed in the toilet."
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/1409...ct-judge-thokozile-masipa-reading-her-verdict

 

[Cloen]

You missed out that it's now OK to be in possession of illegal items. That was possibly the most baffling decision of all.

but he also had a gun ON ORDER for that ammunition in his safe didn't he - and it obviously wasn't his father's ammo at all, -

During the trial under Cross-exam with Nel , when asked about this........Oscar denied any knowledge that his father had refused to sign an Affidavit to say it was his ammunition in Oscar safe !! I don't believe for one minute, that not one member of Oscar's family told him that his father wouldn't sign an Affidavit, it's totally implausible that happened.

Oscar lies continuously doesn't he , there was no end to it in Court on every Count he was up for. The man disgusts me.

 

[JudgeJudi]

You missed out that it's now OK to be in possession of illegal items. That was possibly the most baffling decision of all.

Thank you for that. I've amended my list.

 

[IndianSummer]

An article with Reeva Steenkamp's brother's perspective. Hopefully headlines like this will continuen to dominate coverage. It's my impression that at some point the judge is required to make available her full ruling wherein I assume she has to cover her reasoning in more detail than the glossed over 'everyone but OP was wrong or lying' that the world got last week. Will be interesting to see how she dismisses the autopsy and ballistics evidence to reach her conclusion that RS had no time to scream.

The more I think about it the less impressed I am with Judge Masipa so I hope she is feeling pressured from both the public outcry and the criticisms from her fellow legal professionals. She may well be a brave woman who has achieved much but she still deserves criticism and a lot of it when it comes to her actions in this case IMO.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...amps-british-brother-adam-claims-9731831.html

Can you imagine watching Oscar whining, barfing,covering his ears in court
When you physically scattered your sisters( murdered by him)ashes in the Ocean

" See you again Reeva"

 

[cynic]

Correct me if I'm wrong..I don't think judge Masipa talked about the bathroom window or even thought about it..

In his story Pistorius claimed that the noise he heard sounded like someone was opening the bathroom window..then when he got to the bathroom he saw the window was indeed open. He was trying to justify his actions as told in his story. HOWEVER..we know there were no intruders..so who opened that window?? There are only two possibilities (either one indicates deception which I think Masipa missed entirely):

1- He opened the window to stage the scene to fit his story..

OR

2- He went to bed leaving the window open..if so..this indicates that the so called fear and paranoia about intruders/burglars is nothing but a lie. He was trying to explain why he SUPPOSEDLY jumped to conclusion that it was an intruder without checking if Reeva was still in bed----> "I panicked". So the so called PARANOID Pistorius slept with his balcony doors open and with bathroom window open..what a liar! He killed Reeva in cold blood..

Not only did Masipa talk about the bathroom window, amazingly, it even formed part of the basis for believing OP.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there didn’t seem to be much that she didn’t believe about his story.

"Evidence shows that at time he fired shots at toilet door, Mr Pistorius believed the deceased was in the bedroom, the judge says. This belief was communicated to a number of people shortly after the incident, she added.
The judge said there is "nothing in the evidence to suggest that Mr Pistorius' belief was not genuinely entertained". She cites reasons including the bathroom window being open, and the toilet door being shut.
"In the present case in his own version, the accused suspected that an intruder had entered through the bathroom window. He… [said] he genuinely, though erroneously, believed that his life and that of the deceased was in danger," the judge said.
"In the present case the accused is the only person who can say what his state of mind was when he fired the shots that killed the deceased," the judge said."
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/1409...ct-judge-thokozile-masipa-reading-her-verdict

 

[JudgeJudi]

"Pistorius would have us believe that he thought his girlfriend was safely in bed next to him. He would have us believe this mythical black intruder was locked in his bathroom. He would have us believe this mythical black intruder was whom he was killing when he fired through a closed door four times, as if somehow that would be justifiable. Though early this morning I may not understand this world we live in, Oscar Pistorius understands it and what he can get away with, perfectly".

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-verdict-reeva-steenkamp-defence-implausible

And so say all of us, well, 99.9% of us.