Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

Discussion in 'Oscar Pistorius' started by bessie, Mar 25, 2014.

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  1. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/185695...=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-broadcast-trial-ruling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/DStvs-Oscar-Pretorius-trial-TV-channel-wont-be-tabloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/97919-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-live-streaming.html

    http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-live-here-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

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  3. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    [​IMG] link [​IMG] link

    Continue discussion here...
     
  4. alioop

    alioop Verified Attorney (AU)

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    This is a hypothetical what if. Bear with me please.

    What if there was an intruder who climbed up the ladder and in the bathroom window. When OP heard the window close, he grabbed Reeva and told her to hide beside the bed and call security. She is following his instructions. He gets his gun and goes down the passage to the bathroom yelling and screaming. He says nothing to the intruder. He believes the intruder to be in the toilet and hears a noise so he shoots 4 times in rapid succession. He hears no screaming.

    Reeva turns on the lights and brings the cricket bat to OP and he breaks the door. Lying dead on the floor is a 12 yr old girl.

    Under SA law, what do people think he is guilty of?
     
  5. kaos

    kaos Active Member

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    I'm probably over thinking here but OP's insistence that she wasn't screaming.

    The only way he could have known that to be true is if he knew she was dead already.
     
  6. Trooper

    Trooper Well-Known Member

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    "call the police!" says Oscar to Reeva, twice .. he whispers it, he shouts it....

    in his evidence in chief.. ( btw.. Oscar isn't a 'witness'. he is the accused..that's why his evidence, as opposed to all other testimonies is called the chief evidence) Oscar has stated a great deal about his doings with police, and his reluctance to report, involve, call upon , or in anyway consider the police as an organization of assistance.

    In varied situations, and in various moods of his.....not one of which had a good outcome for Oscar, due to various reasons, the times he has recalled of police in his life have been overwhelmingly negative..100% so far.. cant get more overwhelmingly negative than that. '


    He pays over the odds to live in a gated community with private security, precisely not to have a thing to do with the SAPS.. his own first call for help in an extreme situation was not to the police.. in fact he never called the police that night at all. He didn't instruct anyone else to call the police either.. not once.

    His evidence in chief went to rather surprising lengths to describe in detail about all police officers who ever had the misfortune, or the nerve to interrupt Oscar in his activities.. the Metro police who ' were not professional, who shouted at him, who lit a cigarette in front of him' ,.. the highway patrol officer who 'touched his gun! he touched my gun!.. the police who had the nerve to respond to a call and charged him with assault.....and so on..

    Yet... on one solitary occasion, when he claims he was in 'deep terror'.. on this one occasion only and no other , in his home, surrounded by patrolling security, a panic button, alarms, 2 dogs, armed with a Parabellum loaded with black talon bullets, he claims he instructed Reeva to 'call the police'.....twice...
     
  7. kaos

    kaos Active Member

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    I still see it as murder. I'd still see it as murder if it was a 40 year old man, two 25 year old men. Even burglars have a right to life. In that scenario, both could be phoning the police first before he gets his gun.
     
  8. liesbeth

    liesbeth New Member

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    Under SA law you are only allowed to shoot in self defense if you believe yourself to be in mortal danger and you have no way to escape from an attacker.

    So my guess is premeditated murder. Premeditated because you had the presence of mind to get the gun, point it and shoot it four times. Once may be an accident, but not four times.

    http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/legal-services/criminal-law1/self-defense
     
  9. Trooper

    Trooper Well-Known Member

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    you could add that this hypothetical 12 yr old girl is in the school uniform of St. Mary's Diocesan School for Girls, Pretoria, just to add to the dilemma.
     
  10. TrueDetective

    TrueDetective New Member

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    I have long pondered possible/likely scenarios which would result in the crime and I have also come to a similar conclusion.

    It is based upon previous experience, human nature, past behaviours, character studies, logic and the limited evidence.

    I do think that the evening of Feb 13th was a major row and it had been brewing for a few weeks. It escalated to a new level though there had been signs that threats and violent bursts of anger were possible, likely not directed at RS herself until that night but at objects or excessive speeding, other signs of a dangerous temper and loss of self control.
    For whatever reason, the actual triggers for this major row are private - no known evidence at this point (relationships are not catalogued perfectly and chronologically in media and software data, especially someone like OP who has already stated that he prefers to talk in person or by phone).
    The trigger is extremely likely to be jealousy, possibly exacerbated by unknown personal, financial or relationship issues. It escalated into a dangerous and physical confrontation, mostly upstairs (damage to bedroom door) and OP feared the repurcussions this time as he'd gone much further than previous flash points, both in this and previous relationships.
    It was the end, not just another OP tantrum but this time a life changing event. He panicked, totally flipped and kept RS captive in the bathroom area (much damage, jeans out of window) for a period of up to 1 hour after 2am.
    I believe that it was him who forced her into the toilet and separated her from her phone which was the biggest threat to OP at that point. He was only killing time for the moment.
    He tormented her, threatened her and this continued berating and humiliation ultimately ended in a complete loss of control due to her continued petrified screaming (fear of alerting neighbours) and he murdered her in cold-blood at around 3am.
    His mythical intruder story may even have been invented and planned during that final traumatic hour and perhaps was the final bit of madness/confidence to take out all his anger, fulfil a thrill seeking gun nuts wet dream and fire those four shots through the door into his now ex-girlfriend.
     
  11. DebinGA

    DebinGA New Member

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    There was a perfect storm of emotion inducing things that night, among them Valentine's Day, OP's "hurdle", and RS's Tropika Island gig airing on Feb. 16.
     
  12. Viper

    Viper New Member

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    Yes!!! Finally the two things that I enjoy consuming, alcoholic beverages and no carbs meats and veggies, in no particular order BTW. Thanks Harmony.
     
  13. Trooper

    Trooper Well-Known Member

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    what a pity Oscar couldn't appropriate Darrin Fresco's miracle gun, the one that actually fires without touching the trigger ... I'm surprised he handed it back to Fresco..

    With that gun, he'd be utterly invincible in any situation... there is every likelihood he could make that particular gun move itself to the bathroom, and fire at will with thought direction.

    Considering the capacities of that one-off astonishing piece of equipment, it's truly a miracle that Darrin Fresco himself is around , alive, breathing, speaking , to give testimony... lucky Darrin, ey?
     
  14. soozieqtips

    soozieqtips Owned by a cat...

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    Did OP deactivate the alarm in a deliberate attempt to stop Reeva alerting security?
    He says he deactivated it before he went downstairs to open the door.

    "I was not aware of any malfunction of my alarm in 2013," says Pistorius, who says he deactivated it before going downstairs to open the door. Nel seizes on this saying, saying he is changing the evidence as he goes along.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/11/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-11-april
     
  15. Val1

    Val1 New Member

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    Wow, I was responding to someone in the now closed thread with somewhat similar.

    In one scenario I can envision,

    They started arguing downstairs where RS had gone to grab a snack because she couldn't sleep(it was pretty early to go to bed... by 10pm especially the night before Valentine's and OP had a dentist appt the next morning iirc so he may have had a toothache and not been in the mood) because of something OP saw on her ipad/cell upstairs and RS threatened to leave saying she had friends too and a life of her own and he would have to accept that if he wanted to be with her, just like she had to learn to accept his life and past.

    They argued, RS ran upstairs to pack her stuff closing the bedroom door, OP came up and the door may have been stuck whereupon he broke it open. At that point, scared of him and now screaming in fear, RS fled to the bath room, cell in hand, threatening to call the police, but OP chased and caught up with her in the bath room, there was an altercation and OP got her cell then pushed her into the toilet room and locked the door on her while he tried to search her cell for evidence of cheating/whatever discovering she had a pass code on it.

    That really angered him imo and they had a screaming match about it through the door with her calling for help and OP mocking her. Losing control OP went and got his bat and tried to "convince" her to give him the pass code. Now RS was desperately screaming in fear(possibly reliving her past episode of an intruder, a real one) and OP furious now as he realized the neighbour's lights were coming on and his actions would be revealed to the world(he was still trying to shut up the last incident, at great expense), ran to get his gun and came back to shut her up. Seeing him through the splintered part of the door and not believing he'd actually shoot her RS stood at the door begging him to calm down when he started shooting.
     
  16. Viper

    Viper New Member

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    I realize I come across as dismissing anything that OP says as being false, and I do! :wink: But he must have some really elaborate security system. You can even turn it on and set it to where it doesn't go off even if the patio doors are open and the bathroom window is open!
     
  17. Patagonia

    Patagonia New Member

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    As I (following this case) came to understand about SA crime rate and people's feelings and views there, he would be charged of culpable homicide (or maybe even no charges would be brought), but would get a suspended sentence due to suffering enough with his own feelings of guilt, etc.

    And the majority of SA people would sympathize with him, imo.

    Am I right Carol70?
     
  18. Bobbie Elliott

    Bobbie Elliott New Member

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    I confess that I haven't read every word pertaining to the event. However, based on what is known/claimed:

    A man who is very unstable on his stumps, responds to a perceived threat by choosing to risk moving across a slippery floor to confront a supposed intruder, who is presumably able-bodied and armed. He tells the woman he is so keen to protect to call the police.

    Why not get down behind the bed with Reeva and protect them both with his great marksmanship? The intruder won't even know that they are there.

    From behind the bed, Reeva can call security? They will surely get there much faster than the police. By the time police get there, all would have been played out.

    Also, why does an affluent person who presumably moves around on his stumps at home have a floor that is too slippery to move around on safely?
     
  19. soozieqtips

    soozieqtips Owned by a cat...

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    OP's 'version' about the Tasha's incident is just so ludicrous, that it's worth reading again to see just how ludicrous it is.


    "The gun went off by itself?" Nel asked.

    Pistorius was adamant: "I know that my finger was not on the trigger."

    An incredulous Nel went on: "We have you in possession of the gun, a shot went off, but you didn't discharge the gun?... I'm putting it to you, you fired that gun. There is no other way. You are lying."

    Pistorius replied: "I respect Mr Nel's comment, but "I didn't pull the trigger on that firearm. I didn't pull the trigger. I didn't have time to think."
     
  20. Viper

    Viper New Member

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    :goodpost: :floorlaugh:
     
  21. Patagonia

    Patagonia New Member

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    I agree. But I think in SA he would get off with suspended sentence. Due to other cases of mistaken identity happening there. And due to Oscar being a national hero.

    But this is different, here we have Oscar clearly lying under oath about what happened that night, and his story being full of holes...
     
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