TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[neesaki]

I think this will all fall on the Air Force. He was over 18/21, previous posts that were quoted had classmates saying he changed sometime after high school, and I have yet to see any criminal actions by him before he joined the service. And if those quotes are to be believed, his parents DID have him on meds.

Who knows? His family or wife could hold the AF liable? The AF had ALL the evidence to put him away for a long time, have him put in the prohibited possessor data base, and deem him indefinitely mentally unfit.

I keep meaning to ask this, regarding him being on some sort of psych meds: I had the impression the military wouldn't accept anyone if they were on psych meds, including drugs for ADD and ADHD. I think I got this from the Columbine shootings, Harris and Klebold, one or both of them, I remember were angry that the military wouldn't accept them due to them being on these medications. I could very well be wrong though, just asking for information. If anyone else remembers or could clarify would appreciate. TIA

 

[bluesneakers]

I keep meaning to ask this, regarding him being on some sort of psych meds: I had the impression the military wouldn't accept anyone if they were on psych meds, including drugs for ADD and ADHD. I think I got this from the Columbine shootings, Harris and Klebold, one or both of them, I remember were angry that the military wouldn't accept them due to them being on these medications. I could very well be wrong though, just asking for information. If anyone else remembers or could clarify would appreciate. TIA

Military Medical Standards For Enlistment And Commission

Medical Conditions That May Prevent You From Joining the Military
Disorders with Psychotic Features
Neurotic, Anxiety, Mood, Somatoform, Dissociative, or Factitious Disorders
Personality, Conduct, and Behavior Disorders

I don't think they would have let him join with that diagnosis or if he was taking meds. It looks like policy changed in 2017 though:

https://www.thebalance.com/new-asthma-and-add-adhd-policy-3353970

 

[HMSHood]

I agree. I think he was a psychopath or possibly brain tumor. Waiting to see tox reports or anything to give us a clue.

I am leaning towards psychopath. Paranoid psychopath to be more specific.

 

[Bernina]

I keep meaning to ask this, regarding him being on some sort of psych meds: I had the impression the military wouldn't accept anyone if they were on psych meds, including drugs for ADD and ADHD. I think I got this from the Columbine shootings, Harris and Klebold, one or both of them, I remember were angry that the military wouldn't accept them due to them being on these medications. I could very well be wrong though, just asking for information. If anyone else remembers or could clarify would appreciate. TIA

Current guidelines as of 1-10-2017:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...cal-waivers-no-questions-prior-marijuana.html

The Air Force is looking to expand its ranks in part by boosting the number medical waivers for potential recruits, the service announced Tuesday.
Prospective airmen routinely disqualified from serving because of eczema, asthma and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, or ADHD, will now be given a second chance on a case-by-case basis.

[h=2]ADHD[/h]A potential airman with a history of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder must demonstrate at least 15 months of performance stability -- either academic or through the individual's occupation -- off medication for the condition immediately preceding enlistment or enrollment, according to the new policy.

 

[Bravo]

Agree ^ HMSHood

 

[HMSHood]

And we all know these are red flags, right? So why are they constantly being missed?


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I don't know. The near death of his step son should of gotten him a much harsher sentence.

 

[JaneEyre]

Current guidelines as of 1-10-2017:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...cal-waivers-no-questions-prior-marijuana.html

Eczema? Really? Lol. I can't believe that was a disqualifying factor.

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[samsmom]

Names of 26 victims of Texas church shooting released

http://pix11.com/2017/11/08/names-of-26-victims-of-texas-church-shooting-released/

Robert Scott Marshall, 56
Karen Sue Marshall, 56
Keith Allen Braden, 62
Tara E. McNulty, 33
Annabelle Renae Pomeroy, 14
Peggy Lynn Warden, 56
Dennis Neil Johnson, Sr.; 77
Sara Johns Johnson, 68
Lula Woicinski White, 71
Joann Lookingbill Ward, 30
Brooke Bryanne Ward, 5
Robert Michael Corrigan, 51
Shani Louise Corrigan, 51
Therese Sagan Rodriguez, 66
Ricardo Cardona Rodriguez, 64
Haley Krueger, 16
Emily Garcia, 7
Emily Rose Hill, 11
Gregory Lynn Hill, 13
Megan Gail Hill, 9
Marc Daniel Holcombe, 36
Noah Holcombe, 1
Karla Plain Holcombe, 58
John Bryan Holcombe, 60
Crystal Marie Holcombe (pregnant*), 36
*Carlin Brite “Billy Bob” Holcombe (unborn)

Thank you for posting this.

 

[kittythehare]

Reading back on all the posts something keeps striking me hard..
There are really nasty people in the world.
They do not have a psychiatric diagnosis because none is warranted.
why do we rush to put a psychiatric label on horrible people/
Sure a label serves as a description but I believe its worth considering that they are not all mentally ill.
They are DARK, perverted and a million other adjectives.. but they will not all sustain a psychiatric label or diagnosis.
How would we be discussing this case if we refrained from a diagnosis?

 

[rsd1200]

Let me get this straight. This guy pleaded guilty to assaulting his ex-wife and stepson with enough force to cause death. He had a documented history of animal cruelty. He had previously been investigated for sexual assault. He once escaped from an inpatient psychiatric facility where he'd been placed involuntarily after he threatened his military superiors and attempted to hide firearms. Yet, this was able to legally secure an AR-15 and other firearms from various authorized gun stores?

I'm a gun owner and support the right to bear arms, but like all rights offered to the citizens of this country, there are stipulations set forth with good reason. However, firearm regulations are completely useless if our system is so flawed that it failed to block the sale of a firearm to a dangerous and deranged criminal deviant of this magnitude.

This must be rectified, like yesterday. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I don't want to hear excuses. I want it fixed -- NOW.

I too am an owner of legally purchased firearms and support the same. Humans are fallible and for whatever reason something happened and his paperwork didn't get filed, and computer are only as good as the info that goes into them, we used to call it GIGO (garbage in garbage out). Even if everything had been done perfectly, I think, TX is the same as my state, and he could have purchased firearms from private sellers w/o any problem. Private sellers can sell their own firearms, as long as the private seller does not knowingly sell to a felon. I see firearms for sale on FB everyday. I'd absolutely never buy a firearm from someone off of FB, or trade/sell one of mine on FB. No way. However, I have no problem passing my background checks.

 

[bluesneakers]

Reading back on all the posts something keeps striking me hard..
There are really nasty people in the world.
They do not have a psychiatric diagnosis because none is warranted.
why do we rush to put a psychiatric label on horrible people/
Sure a label serves as a description but I believe its worth considering that they are not all mentally ill.
They are DARK, perverted and a million other adjectives.. but they will not all sustain a psychiatric label or diagnosis.
How would we be discussing this case if we refrained from a diagnosis?

Because we mistakenly believe if we can label them and identify them we can lock them up and be safe.

 

[rsd1200]

Sutherland Springs church shooter escaped mental health facility months after attack on wife, child

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...th-facility-months-after-attack-on-wife-child

The witness informed officers that Kelley “was a danger to himself and others as he had already been caught sneaking firearms onto Holloman Air Force base,” located approximately 100 miles from the bus terminal. The report further states that Kelley “was attempting to carry out death threats” he had made on his military superiors.

I'm following, but at a distance, this one has really got to me, but this comment:

He said he could not talk about Kelley's diagnosis but added, "I had a very strong relationship with all the service members but this kid -- he was hollow. I could never reach him."

 

[rsd1200]

agreed. The AF did take it seriously but still he managed to slip between the cracks over and over again.

There are lots of these guys out there, who have a similar history as this guy, but they never reach this point. They just keep beating the crap out of everyone close to them, stalking them, shooting or stabbing them, and basically terrorizing them, until their prey either manages to get away, or they end up killing them (or, they actually die themselves.).

 

[Inthedetails]

Reading back on all the posts something keeps striking me hard..
There are really nasty people in the world.
They do not have a psychiatric diagnosis because none is warranted.
why do we rush to put a psychiatric label on horrible people/
Sure a label serves as a description but I believe its worth considering that they are not all mentally ill.
They are DARK, perverted and a million other adjectives.. but they will not all sustain a psychiatric label or diagnosis.
How would we be discussing this case if we refrained from a diagnosis?

I happen to think people that dark and perverted ARE ill. It's not a normal state of mind and I while I don't know the causes or cures, I think it's worth investigating....and at this point in our knowledge of such things, it tends to be a mental illness discussion.

Which is NOT to say that people with mental illness are dark and perverted. NO!

But these dark, evil perps....yes, I think they have a mental illness. What exactly it is in this case, I don't know.

jmopinion

 

[ab01]

I don't want to go off topic here and have a whole nature vs nurture discussion. But you know when I was raised I was instilled with a general sense of right and wrong, and fear off breaking the law. You knew better than to do something to shame your family. and no matter the circumstances I have come across in my life I always have had that in the back of my mind. I often wonder if the people that commit these terrible crimes were instilled with those same values? Moo


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[thefragile7393]

I don't want to go off topic here and have a whole nature vs nurture discussion. But you know when I was raised I was instilled with a general sense of right and wrong, and fear off breaking the law. You knew better than to do something to shame your family. and no matter the circumstances I have come across in my life I always have had that in the back of my mind. I often wonder if the people that commit these terrible crimes were instilled with those same values? Moo


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You can Instill whatever you like, does not mean they choose to follow it. And with very troubled kids, you will have a hard time instilling many things in them.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't want to go off topic here and have a whole nature vs nurture discussion. But you know when I was raised I was instilled with a general sense of right and wrong, and fear off breaking the law. You knew better than to do something to shame your family. and no matter the circumstances I have come across in my life I always have had that in the back of my mind. I often wonder if the people that commit these terrible crimes were instilled with those same values? Moo


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In many cases it seems like their friends and family members tried to instil these values in them. Compare some of the criminals to their siblings or other family members. And while mass shootings like this one have gotten worse in recent years they are not new, nor are any of the other crimes he committed.

 

[thefragile7393]

Reading back on all the posts something keeps striking me hard..
There are really nasty people in the world.
They do not have a psychiatric diagnosis because none is warranted.
why do we rush to put a psychiatric label on horrible people/
Sure a label serves as a description but I believe its worth considering that they are not all mentally ill.
They are DARK, perverted and a million other adjectives.. but they will not all sustain a psychiatric label or diagnosis.
How would we be discussing this case if we refrained from a diagnosis?

To my non professional psych worker knowledge he has them, like many other criminals-Axis II or Cluster B issues, Aka personality disorder(s). He fits Anti-Social Personality Disorder to a T (aka psychopathy) from everything listed here. He fits every bit of the description and I wouldn’t be surprised if there wasn’t more. There could be some chemical diagnoses thrown that we may learn about some day, but his personality was disordered for a very long time.

 

[rsd1200]

My understanding is that he was living in a very nice apartment Built inside a pole barn on his parents multi million dollar property moo


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That's what I understood too. That's speaks volumes to me, they probably loved their kid, but had reached a point that they couldn't live in the same home with him (guessing, of course). Too much friction. May have been kinda scared to have him in the home too, but, didn't want him walking homeless on the streets, nowhere to go, especially with mental health issues.

 

[kittythehare]

I happen to think people that dark and perverted ARE ill. It's not a normal state of mind and I while I don't know the causes or cures, I think it's worth investigating....and at this point in our knowledge of such things, it tends to be a mental illness discussion.

Which is NOT to say that people with mental illness are dark and perverted. NO!

But these dark, evil perps....yes, I think they have a mental illness. What exactly it is in this case, I don't know.

jmopinion

Theres a whole theme of cruelty running through his life.. he carried out many cruel acts.. bullying acts.. stalking acts, power plays, controlling behaviour.. but I am reluctant to lob him in the pit of the commoner gardener psychopaths and sociopaths, schizophrenics and other derangements whose label tends to change seasonally..
rage cruelty seemed to have driven him.. his early perverse filming of his mother and his sister in the shower..
wdh?