Found Alive TX - Holly Marie Clouse, 11 mths, Lewisville, 6 Jan 1981 (Located Jun'22)

Betty P

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Hugely important. We still don’t have a solid timeline. I re-watched the Texas AG presser. He says she was dropped off at a church and ‘out of respect for her and her family, we won’t say any more at that time.’

The other big detail is media reports re: the birth certificate being “attached” to Holly’s adoption papers which would indicate the cult had the birth certificate with them.

I wonder if David Koresh was operating in the Houston area during that time? He was one bad cult leader who had people killed. I wonder if the cult members who kidnapped the baby and stole the victims car were the type of cult where women were expected to have sex with the leaders?
 

Betty P

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the crazy things ppl get away with
this cult might been involved in more than this poor couple death.. if its true they have given another child away
now HOW did le let them go in the first place ??!! they drive a missing ppl car ?
so what if they know about the mother a phone number ? couldn't these info be taken by force or do they eliminate foul play !!
it would be almost impossible to track this now.. the police report isnt found and those cult members if still alive are not giving secrets away ..some say the cult might be still active in some parts

For now, I'm not believing anything the cult members have said about the victims, the car, the timeline, etc. These people committed at least a few serious felony crimes, so they were not going to tell the truth to family or investigators. Their story is likely fabricated. They're criminals, people who participated in the kidnapping of a baby, stole a car (and probably other possessions), lied to police and family and tried to extort money from the victims family members.
 

sandy_80

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For now, I'm not believing anything the cult members have said about the victims, the car, the timeline, etc. These people committed at least a few serious felony crimes, so they were not going to tell the truth to family or investigators. Their story is likely fabricated. They're criminals, people who participated in the kidnapping of a baby, stole a car (and probably other possessions), lied to police and family and tried to extort money from the victims family members.
right..its possible that the couple were brainwashed for a little while ( consider how very young they were ) ..but recanted ( why would a young healthy couple in love agree to live separately ! and give away a beautiful baby ) so then they were killed and robbed of everything I bet they had money and other possessions) ...this means they can HAVE their personal information and docs like birth certificate ...
like in typical cult behaviour ..everything is justified if it serves their higher purposes ...
the fact that the couple are killed thru strangulation and beatings and not a traditional weapon also coincide with ( cult living in biblical times )
JMO
 

formerlyme

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I
the crazy things ppl get away with
this cult might been involved in more than this poor couple death.. if its true they have given another child away
now HOW did le let them go in the first place ??!! they drive a missing ppl car ?
so what if they know about the mother a phone number ? couldn't these info be taken by force or do they eliminate foul play !!
it would be almost impossible to track this now.. the police report isnt found and those cult members if still alive are not giving secrets away ..some say the cult might be still active in some parts
I could be wrong but I don't think the couple was reported as missing at the time the car was returned.
 

sony12

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Technically as of now we really don't know what involvement the cult had in the murder of these two people. And it is also entirely possible that the young ladies that dropped the baby off at the church had absolutely nothing to do with them dying.

Is there a chance they did? Absolutely. But we really need to be open to all possibilities including them being killed by people outside the cult. One thing we do know is that the cult was involved in drugs and Dean had some prior involvement with the group. Anytime drugs are involved in disappearances virtually anything is possible.
 

formerlyme

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Technically as of now we really don't know what involvement the cult had in the murder of these two people. And it is also entirely possible that the young ladies that dropped the baby off at the church had absolutely nothing to do with them dying.

Is there a chance they did? Absolutely. But we really need to be open to all possibilities including them being killed by people outside the cult. One thing we do know is that the cult was involved in drugs and Dean had some prior involvement with the group. Anytime drugs are involved in disappearances virtually anything is possible.
agree 100 Percent.
 

sandy_80

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I

I could be wrong but I don't think the couple was reported as missing at the time the car was returned.
what do you mean ? the mother said by the time the car was returned she hadnt heard from her son for months
how do you define missing
 

formerlyme

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the family had not filed missing police reports at that time, I believe it is in this thread that the reports were filed long after the couple was missing which contributed to the time it took for the bodies to be identified.... there was no missing persons report filed with police.
what do you mean ? the mother said by the time the car was returned she hadnt heard from her son for months
how do you define missing
 

azure

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What's interesting is that at some point the cult obviously had Dean's parents contact info, because they sold them the car (or extorted $1000 for it). So why didn't they try to give Holly to them? I'm sure they could have extorted some cash that way too, for her care or for bringing her across the country etc. Was it too much of a red flag that the couple was missing? Did the couple agree under duress to give Holly up and didn't want relatives to know? Many unanswered questions here.
 

sandy_80

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the family had not filed missing police reports at that time, I believe it is in this thread that the reports were filed long after the couple was missing which contributed to the time it took for the bodies to be identified.... there was no missing persons report filed with police.
that is different from saying ( they were not missing at that point )_
the mother said she was helpless at that time.. cause apparently they had no evidence of foul play..I mean we are talking about le that let the alleged suspects leave ..so how are we to say its not them who refused to consider them missing ?
lets say the mother made a bad call...what is le rule in all of this!
was there an actual evidence that this couple had surrendered themselves to them
or is it just the word of a cult members ?
..why no one asked where the child was.. how strange not to ask for the child safety ...its just a mess all around
>>>>>>>>
you know i don't know if its an 80s thing..or maybe i am from a different background
but the fact that some really weird crazy looking strangers come one day with my car and say your son wants nothing to do with you ..and I ll let them leave just like that
its just bizarre
 
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Betty P

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Technically as of now we really don't know what involvement the cult had in the murder of these two people. And it is also entirely possible that the young ladies that dropped the baby off at the church had absolutely nothing to do with them dying.

Is there a chance they did? Absolutely. But we really need to be open to all possibilities including them being killed by people outside the cult. One thing we do know is that the cult was involved in drugs and Dean had some prior involvement with the group. Anytime drugs are involved in disappearances virtually anything is possible.

I have a difficult time understanding how these two ladies just happened to find an "abandoned" baby along with its birth certificate under innocent circumstances. Did someone leave her on their doorstep?

Most people who just happened to find an abandoned child would contact police, instead of giving it to a church. It's the job of law enforcement, social services and the courts to investigate how a child was abandoned and who should take custody of it. During the early 1980's, that was standard procedure, just as it is now.

I could be wrong but I don't think the couple was reported as missing at the time the car was returned.

The parents of the couple weren't aware they were missing until the cult members contacted them. From the timeline we know so far, all of this happened fairly quickly, not long after they moved to Houston.

The fact that the cult members were in the possession of the couple's car, JMO, links them to knowledge of and possible participation in the murders. Don't forget they also lied about the baby. Based on that alone, nothing they say can be believed.

I feel so badly for these kids parents. They must have been terrified with the children and the baby missing and the creepy cult people trying to get them to give them $1,000 for the return of the car. I don't blame them for calling the police.
 

BananaBreaderz

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Technically as of now we really don't know what involvement the cult had in the murder of these two people. And it is also entirely possible that the young ladies that dropped the baby off at the church had absolutely nothing to do with them dying.

Is there a chance they did? Absolutely. But we really need to be open to all possibilities including them being killed by people outside the cult. One thing we do know is that the cult was involved in drugs and Dean had some prior involvement with the group. Anytime drugs are involved in disappearances virtually anything is possible.
It is very likely the cult is involved since a group of people matching their their exact description were also in possession of the couple’s car *after* the murders. It is more far-fetched to believe they were in possession of a murdered couple’s baby and car without realizing it or being involved in any way.
 

formerlyme

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To be honest I feel like the fact that they had the birth certificate is an indication Holly very well may have been given up voluntarily.
IT is possible, the young couple could have fallen totally in, I still think it is possible that they were giving everything over, maybe even changed their minds and were getting away or out when some one killed them, I don't have enough info to decide it was the cult it could have been anyone.... I hope the investigation is going well, I am sure knowing who they are is the first step to the case being solved.
 

GeorgiaRai

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IMO, one of the ladies could have been Tina - or could have claimed to be Tina - and told the church Holly's name and date/place of birth. From there, the Texas DFPS should have been able to obtain a copy of the birth certificate from Florida (meaning the ladies didn't necessary have a printed birth cert in hand.)

I don't believe the parents volutarily gave up their daughter UNLESS they knew they were in danger and did it to protect her. IIRC, it was only Dean that had prior history with a cult - before he dated & married Tina. That makes it even less likely, IMO, that she voluntarily abandoned her child to follow the sect.
 

sandy_80

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we have a murder
It is very likely the cult is involved since a group of people matching their their exact description were also in possession of the couple’s car *after* the murders. It is more far-fetched to believe they were in possession of a murdered couple’s baby and car without realizing it or being involved in any way.
it seems that even these things are not enough !
i just saw a bizarre case of the murder of Brian egg where the suspects lived in his house ...used his credit cards to buy stuff and hired a crime scene clean up and did everything to hide evidence while the victim dismembered body was found in a fish tank inside
ALL OF THIS...and they were let go cause le had no case
I dont understand whats going on...and whats a damning evidence
 

cvaldez1975

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we have a murder

it seems that even these things are not enough !
i just saw a bizarre case of the murder of Brian egg where the suspects lived in his house ...used his credit cards to buy stuff and hired a crime scene clean up and did everything to hide evidence while the victim dismembered body was found in a fish tank inside
ALL OF THIS...and they were let go cause le had no case
I dont understand whats going on...and whats a damning evidence
god the brian egg case was so weird!
 

Betty P

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While there is still some activity with the group we need to remember all this happened 40 plus years ago. The group now appears to be pretty harmless. We have already had numerous posts deleted because we started talking about a current social media figure from the group.

Just guessing, but it’s probably up to LE to determine if any of the current members who were with the Clouses prior to their murders are harmless. I hope if any of those members are still alive they’re being questioned and investigated.

We know the victims’ DNA was preserved, along with other evidence. Perhaps they also retrieved DNA from the killers and accomplices on the victims or at the crime scene.

I also hope LE retrieved fingerprints from the Clouses car back when it was turned over.

This sad case is getting quite a bit of well deserved media attention, so that bodes well for LE following through.
 
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sony12

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Just guessing, but it’s probably up to LE to determine if any of the current members who were with the Clouses prior to their murders are harmless. I hope if any of those members are still alive they’re being questioned and investigated.

We know the victims’ DNA was preserved, along with other evidence. Perhaps they also retrieved DNA from the killers and accomplices on the victims or at the crime scene.

I also hope LE retrieved fingerprints from the Clouses car back when it was turned over.

This sad case is getting quite a bit of well deserved media attention, so that bodes well for LE following through.

Perhaps a better way of putting it would be is that it is up to LE to figure out if any of the current members had anything to do with the case. Rather than saying if the current members who were with the Clouses are harmless.

We don't have a shred of evidence to suggest that any of the people currently still practicing within this group had anything at all to do with this case.
 

Betty P

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Perhaps a better way of putting it would be is that it is up to LE to figure out if any of the current members had anything to do with the case. Rather than saying if the current members who were with the Clouses are harmless.

We don't have a shred of evidence to suggest that any of the people currently still practicing within this group had anything at all to do with this case.

The evidence Is being gathered we’ll see what happens. If anyone out there witnessed or knew about the murders, kidnapping, attempts to give away the kidnapped child or theft of the victims car should do the moral and smart thing - talk to police about what they know.
 
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