TX TX - Huntsville, 'Walker County Jane Doe' WhtFem 91UFTX, 14-16, Nov'80 *GRAPHIC* #2

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by KT Can, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. detective24-7

    detective24-7 Active Member

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    Yeah, I've always thought they noted this as something genetic rather than a result of decomposition given they found her the same day she was killed. It would leave little time for that dramatic of effect of decomposition to set in from the time she was killed (3AM) to the time she was found (9AM).
     
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  2. LookingForClues

    LookingForClues Active Member

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    It seems like Ramona would have been too old to be WCJD. If she was born in 1954, she would have been 26 in November 1980. Most woman that age wouldn't be mistaken for a 14-16 year old.
     
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  3. Northfloridafaces

    Northfloridafaces Member

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    Any chance shes a victim of Carroll Cole? I was going to comb through the thread... but I'm tired lol
     
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  4. Tabirey

    Tabirey Music Addict

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    True that most women wouldn't. But you'd be surprised if you met my daughter. She is almost 26 and gets mistaken as a teenager constantly, most guess her to be 15 or 16. Plus, after seeing age discrepancies when they've identified other UPs, I don't usually rule anyone out by the estimated age or height/weight anymore. Especially if other identifiers and/or circumstances line up.
     
  5. Northfloridafaces

    Northfloridafaces Member

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    Last year, I had a woman ask me how I liked middle school. She was completely serious.
    I am in college.

    Thats is an interesting point though. I assumed that their estimates were based on the autopsy, but if they were going off of appearance, that changes things.
     
  6. RookieInvestigator

    RookieInvestigator Well-Known Member

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    The case I was thinking about was S. Stites...Her crime scene photos are online...I'm not sure if they were inverted or just flattened...I didn't realize some women were born that way...
     
  7. RookieInvestigator

    RookieInvestigator Well-Known Member

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    Bundy also bit his victims...He was into necrophilia...Is there a connection between biting and necrophilia??
     
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  8. Spindlebrook

    Spindlebrook Member

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    Also, a 26 year old woman telling a waitress that she was 18 would make zero sense.
     
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  9. RookieInvestigator

    RookieInvestigator Well-Known Member

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    The article was shocking...That was a great find...If I read it correctly, I believe William Reece is probably one of the "Texas Killing Fields" serial killers...The victims they listed were included in that group...They always said there was more than one serial killer dumping bodies in the area...LE may have been looking for suspects in TX but he lived in OK too...

    His MO is undeniable...The surviving victim was at a payphone just like Laura Miller and Heide Villarreal-Fye (Their remains were found on Calder Road with Jane & Janet Doe that were just Identified)....This may explain how they vanished after using the same payphone at the same store...

    During the press conference for Jane & Janet Doe, LE said they had a person of interest...Maybe it's him...

    He was in in prison in OK...I found someone born in 1959 with the same name...He was incarcerated from
    2-5-1987 to 4-23-1995...His charges were sexual assault related and kidnapping...I think a serial killer from Louisiana was also charged with a murder connected to the Killing Fields...

    I remember on another thread I found info about skeletal remains in a bag near the TX/LA border...I wonder if that's connected to him..

    As it pertains to WJCD...Did she go to a payphone to call for a ride? We are hearing she was possibly hitchhiking... Is there a connection??? He was a truck driver...
     
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  10. Jdart14

    Jdart14 Well-Known Member

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    Had not read much about c cole until you mentioned. Interesting that he was back in Dallas Texas around November 1980 and had strangled several there. Puts him in the right area. Seems he had a habit of taking steps to conceal / hide his victims after. But I guess anything is possible.
     
  11. LookingForClues

    LookingForClues Active Member

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    I can't imagine someone saying they're younger than they are either. Especially when the waitress asked her if her parents knew where she was.

    I thought the revised younger age range for WCJD was based on a 2nd forensic examination, and they decided she was so young not based on appearance but by findings during this 2nd examination. Can anyone clarify that for me?

    I know that mistakes are made in age estimates though, so I understand why you can't do a blanket rule-out simply based on age (or many other physical identifiers). It just struck me that Ramona seems considerably older than what LE and other authorities seem to believe.
     
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  12. Earthbound Misfit I

    Earthbound Misfit I Justice for Kimberly Shawn Cheatham

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    The most common girl names in 1965 were Lisa, Maria, Karen, Mary, Kimberly, Susan, Patricia, Cynthia, Linda, Donna. I'm posting this because you never know when it may come in handy.
     
  13. detective24-7

    detective24-7 Active Member

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    My thoughts exactly. Perhaps she stopped at a payphone where there weren't any eye witnesses and he snatched her there or since it's noted she left on foot from the Hitch'n Post, maybe he offered her a ride as she was walking (possibly hitchhiking) from there.

    My only concern with the theory of the payphone is I don't know who or why she would be calling that time of night and why she wouldn't have called whoever she was calling earlier like when she first arrived to town. But who knows, anything is possible since we don't know her full/honest plan.

    I have always firmly believed it was a truck driver who killed her.
     
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  14. Nomen Dubium

    Nomen Dubium New Member

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    I'm a new member here and this is my first post in an active investigation so, please, go easy on me if I'm saying or asking anything that's been mentioned before. WCJD is one of the cases that led me to Websleuths and it brought me to tears just reading what she went through. With that in mind, I have a few questions about the case that, from reading this thread, I can't tell if they were answered or not. I'll couple these with the background reading that I've been able to do thus far. Could someone more familiar with the case fill in the (probably large) gaps and areas I'll certainly have missed?

    1. Elsewhere in the thread somebody posted to the effect that a young woman who matched the description of WCJD was seen getting into a station wagon with up to three male passengers. Has this sighting been verified or disproved?

    2. I've only made a surface reading of what was done to WCJD and I haven't looked at any mortuary pictures, nor do I intend to (I'm sorry; I don't want images like that in my mind). However, I did read something to the effect that she wasn't 'conventionally' raped; i.e. the assailant used a foreign object. Other posters have mentioned a potential connection to Samuel Little, who I gather is a violent sadist who enjoyed inflicting pain over and above 'normal' sexual gratification.

    3. I don't know if this has been asked elsewhere, but what are the ergonomics of the above? Could the assailant have done what he did to WCJD on his own? Please forgive me if this sounds clumsy or inappropriate; I haven't posted in a forum anything like this one before, so I'm still finding my feet - BUT it seems from the reading that the assailant would have found it difficult to do everything that was done to WCJD on his own.

    4. Given, judging from the surface reading I've taken from the case, that the assailant was someone who enjoyed hurting people, would it be possible that, instead of beating her unconscious (as Little, as a self-described 'prize-fighter' would have been more than capable of doing), someone else assisted the assailant? I haven't read anything to the effect that WCJD was tied or shackled, so if the assailant intended to derive enjoyment from what he did to her, he would require her to be conscious (if he's sadistic, he ought to derive no enjoyment from an unconscious victim?).

    5. With the above in mind, is it possible that the assailant had help? Assuming WCJD was conscious during this, a solo assailant would have needed to immobilize her in some way. Is there any evidence that this was done? If there isn't, it seems as if he would have needed to use one hand to restrain her while, with the other, he did whatever he did to her with the 'foreign object'. This seems physically awkward, a difficult balancing act and one that would require a victim who was unable to fight back - which leads back to the above suggestion that a victim unable to struggle is of no enjoyment to a sadist.

    6. A couple of comclusions spring to my mind as a result of this speculation: either a) he was much larger than she was and was able to overpower her, or, b) he had help. I haven't (and again, I have no intention doing this) undertaken any ergonomic evaluations as to the best ways to carry out a violent assault, but it nonetheless seems to me, as an outsider, as if whoever did this to WCJD might have benefited from a third party's help, unless he really was physically much larger than she. has it been ascertained for sure that the assailant acted alone?

    I'm not in a position to help most of these John and Jane Does, but if I can help narrow the focus on their murderers, I hope I can help to do so.
     
  15. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Someone recently uncovered an old article that included that info that was not mentioned in more recent accounts of the crime. Personally, I don't believe it. I went to Huntsville a couple of years ago, and it just doesn't make sense in my mind that after leaving the truck-stop diner, she continued on hitchhiking late at night toward the prison where she must have known they wouldn't allow visitors at that time of the night.

    And there are plenty of places to dump a body in the direction of the prison without having to backtrack through the city of Huntsville, and onto NB I-45.

    As I see it, everything points to her walking out the door of the diner, and asking a trucker if he would let her sleep in his cab. From the truckstop to the dumping spot aside northbound I-45, it is a very easy logical route. There is a northbound onramp right there, and the dumping ground was just far enough north to be out of town.

    That is another reason why my theory makes sense. The logistics of killing someone in the manner that she was killed requires confinement in a place where she can't be heard. The Hitchin Post parking lot is very large and if parked in a far corner of that lot, nobody would hear her screams. It is very logistically difficult to do that in the back of a station wagon, or off the side of the road where one isn't sure who is in the area. It's not logistically difficult to do that in a sleeper cab.


    I don't recall hearing anything about whether she there were ligature marks on her hands and/or feet to indicate restraint.

    Killers kill by themselves (without assistance) all the time. A 110 lb mid-teenaged girl would not be difficult for any average or above-average sized man to restrain. There is no reason why the killer would have needed an accomplice.
     
  16. Nomen Dubium

    Nomen Dubium New Member

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    Thanks for clearing up the gaps in my knowledge. I gather there are quite a few previous threads on this case. Is there a single resource anywhere on the net that summarises the known facts of this case?
     
  17. RookieInvestigator

    RookieInvestigator Well-Known Member

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    I'm new to the thread and since the thread is so long I only read several pages... I just jumped into the thread like you...Some of my thoughts may have been contemplated already to...After reading your observations it gave me a few ideas...

    1. I thought of BTK...I believe he derived pleasure from torturing his victims...I don't think he rape them...He is a sexual sadist...I wonder if her injuries happened during the attack or post-mortem...

    2. Or is the suspect impotent so he had to resort to foreign objects...

    3. Did he use a gun to control her, but used a different method to kill her because a gun would attract to much attention...

    4. I looked at the area the other day, but I'm uncertain how it looked when she was killed...There were probably less businesses across the street...It would make since that a truck driver would be a likely suspect...

    5. If she arrived in the evening where had she planned to stay or was it an impulsive move that she would figure out when she arrived in Huntsville...

    6. If she traveled some distance where were her luggage or bag of clothes...Did she carry only limited items since her home wasn't that far away...Did the suspect keep her belongings...
     
  18. MorbidGateway

    MorbidGateway Active Member

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  19. RookieInvestigator

    RookieInvestigator Well-Known Member

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    ***Please excuse my grammatical errors above...I was rushing...
     
  20. Slow cheetah

    Slow cheetah Member

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    I read somewhere in either this thread or the other one about WCJD that there may have been some connection with the Rebekah Home for Girls in TX. There was a link to a screenshot from an old VHS video that has a girl in it that looks undeniably like her. I mean so much it gave me chills.
    Anyhow, upon doing some more digging I came across a forum where some people who had been in that home for girls were talking. One of them posted her email address. I reached out to her to find out when she was in the Home, and if she knew how I could find old photos or records or who o could talk to, to get some info and possiby see if WCJD WAS there at one time.
    There is supposedly another person in some other forum that says she KNEW WCJD and remembered her but just not her name.
    I don't know about y'all but I think this is a good lead....IF it hasn't already been exhausted but I don't see how it would.
    Also I have been keeping check on the Doe Network to see if any new missing persons cases get added from that time frame. Well, there was one. Not a CLOSE resemblance but enough to maybe take a look into it.
    Here are some links;
    Lester Roloffs Rebekah Home for Girls Survivors-Cult-mindcon
    (That's the thread where I found the email)
    The Night Wind: THANKSGIVING PSA UPDATE: PLEASE READ AND SHARE
    The post above contains the screenshot of the girl.who looks like WCJD.
     

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