TX - Joshua, 8, & Luke Laney, 6, murdered, Smith County, 9 May 2003 *Insanity*

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I'm obviously ignorant of how the law works in these cases. If Andrea Yates - who had a long, drawn out history of mental illness is not insane, how is it possible for this woman, who has NO history of mental illness to be insane?
 
LP Moderator said:
I'm obviously ignorant of how the law works in these cases. If Andrea Yates - who had a long, drawn out history of mental illness is not insane, how is it possible for this woman, who has NO history of mental illness to be insane?
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I just read another article on it, I'll try and find the source. The same psychiatrist (Park Dietz) testified for the prosecution in the Yates trial and for the defense in the Laney trial.

He (Dietz) stated (and I personally find this ludicrous) that Yates was more sane because she received her messages from Satan and Laney received hers--supposedly--from God. Yates should have realized that her messages were wrong because they were from the devil, Laney could only think hers were right because it was God who spoke to her.

Also, Dietz felt it took longer for Yates to kill her children and therefore again she was more sane--she had to put them in the filth of the water where each previous child had drowned (no details here for your stomach's sake) whereas Laney was quicker because she used rocks.

I personally found his whole justifications a crock of horse manure. Both women are clearly mentally ill, if anything, Yates was less responsible IMO because she had other adults making decisions for her--her husband, who was very much aware of her mental health status--and her mother in law, who also saw her on a daily or very regular basis--

Dietz even referred to in the Yates trial an episode of Law and Order (where a woman purposely drowns her children and claims insanity) that never actually happened--I really thought that should have been grounds for a mistrial--I think that influenced the Yates jury as well as his own testimony that she was sane.

Again according to the M'Naghten Rule if you know what you are doing is wrong, when you do it, you are sane enough to be legally sane, even if you are pretty looney tooney in all other regards. So if you kill someone and run and hide, or hide their body, or call 911 (as both Yates and Laney did) you are sane. If you just sit there and do nothing, you are truly insane.

The jury seemed to disregard the evidence that Laney knew what she was doing was wrong--but jurors relied heavily on similar evidence
to convict Yates according to their comments afterwards.

Dietz's whole line of reasoning convinces me that you can have a lot of letters after your name and still not know very much. :mad:
 
Thanks Texana. The whole thing gives me a headache!!! I think the law in Texas is flawed. I think you can know the difference between right and wrong and still its possible that your mental illness played a "most significant" part in you committing the crime (meaning you wouldn't have done it had you NOT had a mental illness. That's the way it works in other states.
 
I agree...It seems pretty obvious that these women wouldn't have killed if it hadn't been for their mental illness, although I'm also not certain they would have killed if it hadn't been for the isolation of their religion. The only problem is that with Texas law also being acquitted for reason of insanity leaves release totally up to the bureaucrats who decide someone is "cured." That seems to coincide with crowding issues at the mental facility.

I don't know if it got much press in the Dallas area, but the guy they just released for blinding his girlfriend with a steak knife (coincidentally after she turned down his offer for marriage) was acquitted for insanity and he's out now, and that was less than five years ago, I think. So now he's "cured" and he's out, and his mother says he's a nice guy, too.

I really did think Andrea Yates deserved to be in a mental health facility, though, because she was so obviously sick. But if she was ever released, I think she would have more children. She had more knowing she was sick before, she would have them again after being released.
 
I agree Texana. However, instead of simply putting these people in prisons because we're scared they may one day be released only to reoffend, I think what's needed is some sort of way to guaranty that a big enough panel of doctors, lawyers and judges AGREE that the patient is truly able to re-enter society, so that juries won't be afraid to rule "not guilty by reason of insanity." There are other states where the law reads that they "ARE guilty by reason of insanity," and in those instances, they are hospitalized until they are well enough to go to jail for a specified period of time. I'm not sure I agree with that because its my opinion that prison can turn people who commit crimes due to mental illness into into monsters. However, I do like the "GUILTY by reason of insanity," so that the fact that the person committed the crime in the first place isn't washed away - it goes with them - as it should.
 
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11254182&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=6

"Judge Kent ordered Mrs. Laney be committed to the Vernon State Hospital, a maximum-security facility designated by the Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation Monday. She will be transported immediately from the Smith County Jail.

Mrs. Laney will remain at the facility until it is deemed she can be released by law or transferred to a non-secure facility, Judge Kent said.

A hearing set for 3 p.m. on April 23 will be conducted for the court to determine if Mrs. Laney is currently mentally ill and if she meets the criteria to be involuntarily committed to a mental facility.

If she is, she will remain in the hospital for up to 90 days for observation and treatment. "

"Mrs. Laney could be freed if the doctors determine she is no longer mentally ill.

But mental health experts have said her illness is caused by a chemical imbalance in her brain that will plague her for the rest of her life."
 
I think there's something like that now, in terms of the panel that judges whether or not they can return to society.

The key seems to be "staying on medication." In the very structured facility setting where an employee brings the pill(s) and makes sure they take it, a lot of these people are pretty much "cured."

But when they get out, they don't continue the medication for one reason or another. They feel better and quit taking it (side effects, whatever) the family members aren't there at all or can't make them take the meds--and they end up violent again.

If there was some way to make sure these people took the medicine, I think they could be released with a pretty good assurance they would be safe.
 
More work needs to be done on a something that can be implanted under the skin so the patient doesn't have to be the one in charge of taking the meds.
 
I always think the husbands of mentally ill women have a huge responsibility in these kinds of cases. I have not read much about her husband, I heard local news people say he is a real private man. And I saw parts of the trial on TV, one of the lawyers said there are reasons why her mental illness went unchecked for a number of years but everyone agrees she has had the illness for at least 3 yrs.......I know no one is perfect and her husband is suffering everyday....but I will never understand how someone plugged into their family enough to have several children, agree to have all the children stay home to be home schooled can not notice his wife is ill and shouldn't be left alone with the kids.....I guess I'm just wishing someone close to her would have gotten her the help and the kids would all be alive today.
 
I agree, Mystery mama..I haven't heard yet tho, just why they said she had this illness for years. I heard she smelled sulphur, but that is not in itself an indication; odd that she felt it was the devil nearby, but that was her religious belief.
The only indications that I heard all came from her, not others. I'm not saying she was lying; she had to be sick to do something so vicious. This is all so puzzling, and so very sad. I do hope and pray that if she ever gets out, they are certain she is 'cured', and very closely monitored thereafter.
Someone mentioned the implant to deliver medication; that would be good for the elderly, too. My brother lived alone & was on a lot of meds. He'd often say he couldn't remember for sure if he'd taken some of them.
 
LP Moderator said:
I agree Texana. However, instead of simply putting these people in prisons because we're scared they may one day be released only to reoffend, I think what's needed is some sort of way to guaranty that a big enough panel of doctors, lawyers and judges AGREE that the patient is truly able to re-enter society, so that juries won't be afraid to rule "not guilty by reason of insanity." There are other states where the law reads that they "ARE guilty by reason of insanity," and in those instances, they are hospitalized until they are well enough to go to jail for a specified period of time. I'm not sure I agree with that because its my opinion that prison can turn people who commit crimes due to mental illness into into monsters. However, I do like the "GUILTY by reason of insanity," so that the fact that the person committed the crime in the first place isn't washed away - it goes with them - as it should.
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I agree, :laugh: where do I go to vote for that ruling?

I don't think these women who kill their children should just be able to walk away and go back to their husbands and what's left of their families - but I don't think they should be in a prison. I think they need to be held accountable for their actions by spending a significant amount of time (10-20 years?)but in a mental facility instead of prison, where they can not only get the help they needed from whatever it was BEFORE they committed their acts, but also help in the long emotional process it must be to come back from doing something so horrendous to your own children! I can't imagine how they can wake up every morning, knowing what they did and how it wasn't a "voice from God or Satan" - but mental problems that could've been treated effectively with medicines and proper diagnosis. So sad for all.
 
Well SieSie, only the lawmakers of your state can create that one. I guess letter writing is the best us "Jane Q. Citizens" can do. Sure does get me fired up though!!
 
Raney has a hearing coming up this week, April 23, Friday. I was just looking for updates and found a couple of interesting articles on how difficult the trial was for all involved.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11285861&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=8

"The hardest thing for him to look at was not the gruesome photographs of the slain children, but a picture of Aaron's Thomas the Tank Engine pajamas, which were about 2 feet long and were about the same size as his son's.

Another part of testimony that was especially troubling for Harrison was testimony that as Joshua, the last son to be attacked, was being led out into the yard, he asked Mrs. Laney, "Where are we going, Mommy?"

He said he could almost hear the trust in the 8-year-old's voice. The children trusted her so much that they laid their heads down on rocks in the yard because their mother told them to.

"That was such a violation of trust it's almost unthinkable," he said.

Harrison said he talked to his priest and his wife about the emotional case to help him cope with what he went through."

And from a reporter's perspective:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11332029&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=226369&rfi=8

"If I felt I had to, I could turn away from the trial I could ask my editors to assign another reporter.

But what about those who can't turn away? What about those who have to look at every bit of evidence, including bloody photos and crime scene video, and hear every grim detail, including video of Mrs. Laney telling doctors how she killed her children?

What about the jurors? Do they get counseling if they feel they need it? Who can they turn to? "
 
SieSie said:
I agree, :laugh: where do I go to vote for that ruling?

I don't think these women who kill their children should just be able to walk away and go back to their husbands and what's left of their families - but I don't think they should be in a prison. I think they need to be held accountable for their actions by spending a significant amount of time (10-20 years?)but in a mental facility instead of prison, where they can not only get the help they needed from whatever it was BEFORE they committed their acts, but also help in the long emotional process it must be to come back from doing something so horrendous to your own children! I can't imagine how they can wake up every morning, knowing what they did and how it wasn't a "voice from God or Satan" - but mental problems that could've been treated effectively with medicines and proper diagnosis. So sad for all.
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I so agree with all that you said here, SieSie! I have said all along that this woman is "not guilty by reason of insanity" and shouldn't go to prison but that doesn't mean that I think she should just go free. I don't think they should let her out any time soon but I do agree that she has a mental illness and she believed she was doing what God commanded of her so that she could be in Heaven with him.

I agree with the GUILTY by reason of insanity term and think the law should be changed to reflect that. I also agree with the implant to supply the mentally ill, their meds.
 
CourtTV is currently running a case of a mother accused of beating 2 of her children to death and injuring the other. She claims the Devil made her do it. That God sent her signs of the Devil to let her know when it was time. She literally stoned these children. Didn't catch her name. I'm going back to watch.
 
beesy said:
CourtTV is currently running a case of a mother accused of beating 2 of her children to death and injuring the other. She claims the Devil made her do it. That God sent her signs of the Devil to let her know when it was time. She literally stoned these children. Didn't catch her name. I'm going back to watch.
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her name is Laney--- I believe her husband was in the house at the time- the baby is blind now from his injuries, if i remember correctly- I saw an areest picture of her, there was blood all over her------ I just dont understand.........................................................:(
at the very least she admiited she did it.........
 
beesy said:
CourtTV is currently running a case of a mother accused of beating 2 of her children to death and injuring the other. She claims the Devil made her do it. That God sent her signs of the Devil to let her know when it was time. She literally stoned these children. Didn't catch her name. I'm going back to watch.
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Her name is Deanna Laney. Very tragic. Sounds like an Andrea Yates case.

Yesterday they were discussing her coming to realization of what she had done once she was treated with medication and counselling. She can't stop crying. She'll be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Both the prosecutors and the defense agree she was insane on the night she murdered them.

I watched a bit of it when she was in the interview with the psychiatrist and explaining what she did, that was enough for me, I turned it off.
 
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