TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Chypre]

I thought maybe if there was a spot they camped a lot(or found  while they were camping), the girls might go there to hang out, and possibly meet someone. It would likely be more private than, say, the mall.

I've wondered that too.

 

[Brightchaser47]

As for CJG, what could possibly have happened that he admitted (for  years), to having seen the girls that day at the mall, yet left town abruptly, and later recanted? He  couldn't have witnessed their murders. Who would kill two young girls (to eliminate witnesses), and let an adult male live? That makes no sense.
He was first on RW's radar, but LE questioned him  briefly. DJ interviewed him a few times, but nothing came of it (that we know of). What did he know or find out?

 

[FW_Froggy]

For someone who, "by her own admission" was one of the last people to see the girls that day, ST seems to have escaped close scrutiny (in my opinion). Her 12:30 pm Minot sighting is  impossible, if the girls went to the mall, after the A/N Store. If the girls were killed  anytime that afternoon at Minot, her story is impossible. So either
1. Something happened to those girls that afternoon at Minot, and ST lied to protect someone,  or
2. ST was way off regarding the time of day she saw them, and they  were at Minot sometime that afternoon, but left, met trouble elsewhere, and the car was taken back to the mall and staged.

I thought the 12:30 Minot sighting was DA on DA's police report.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I thought the 12:30 Minot sighting was DA on DA's police report.

DA did put down that she saw Rachel last about 12:30 at home, but as beubeubeu had said, that could just be LE asking, "So you last saw your sister about 12 hours ago"(or something like that)?
I'm referring to the statement that was discussed on here awhile back--that "a witness saw Rachel backing her car out of the driveway at about 12:30 pm".
Actually, there were different versions of that story, too.
1. ST claimed she stopped Rachel leaving (with the other girls), because she'd come to pick up Shawn. They all entered the house together, etc.
2. A neighbor (or a witness) saw Rachel's car leaving the driveway about 12:30 pm. Some have said the "witness" could be ST.
I just don't believe  anybody saw Rachel at Minot at 12:30 pm that day. DA's statement that Rachel left around 10:00 am (or a little later) jibes more with everyone else's statements (Moseleys, Renee's gm, A/N store sighting).

 

[FW_Froggy]

DA did put down that she saw Rachel last about 12:30 at home, but as beubeubeu had said, that could just be LE asking, "So you last saw your sister about 12 hours ago"(or something like that)?
I'm referring to the statement that was discussed on here awhile back--that "a witness saw Rachel backing her car out of the driveway at about 12:30 pm".
Actually, there were different versions of that story, too.
1. ST claimed she stopped Rachel leaving (with the other girls), because she'd come to pick up Shawn. They all entered the house together, etc.
2. A neighbor (or a witness) saw Rachel's car leaving the driveway about 12:30 pm. Some have said the "witness" could be ST.
I just don't believe  anybody saw Rachel at Minot at 12:30 pm that day. DA's statement that Rachel left around 10:00 am (or a little later) jibes more with everyone else's statements (Moseleys, Renee's gm, A/N store sighting).

ST's statement to DJ said her timeline was between 11:00 and 1:00 pm. which to me would make sense with DA's last seen at 12:30pm. What's weird for me is DA says she didn't see ST and ST says she didn't see DA.

 

[Brightchaser47]

ST's statement to DJ said her timeline was between 11:00 and 1:00 pm. which to me would make sense with DA's last seen at 12:30pm.

Then DA saw her sister at least  twice that day. Rachel left around 10:00 that morning, to pick up Renee, and some time was spent at Gordon. The girls (at least Rachel and Renee) were seen at A/N store at  noon, according to podcast. If that's right, then the girls had to have stopped back by Minot, before heading to the mall.

What's weird for me is DA says she didn't see ST and ST says she didn't see DA.

Then who was watching Shawn? ST was supposedly picking him up. Something doesn't add up. It was claimed the girls had Shawn with them (as they were backing out of the driveway), but who takes a two- year- old with them when they're supposed to be shopping for  him? They already had a nine- year -old tagging along. And we're told they were going shopping for Christmas gifts for Shawn (with no money).
Did TT's house have a basement? Maybe DA was downstairs.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Then DA saw her sister at least  twice that day. Rachel left around 10:00 that morning, to pick up Renee, and some time was spent at Gordon. The girls (at least Rachel and Renee) were seen at A/N store at  noon, according to podcast. If that's right, then the girls had to have stopped back by Minot, before heading to the mall.

Then who was watching Shawn? ST was supposedly picking him up. Something doesn't add up. It was claimed the girls had Shawn with them (as they were backing out of the driveway), but who takes a two- year- old with them when they're supposed to be shopping for  him? They already had a nine- year -old tagging along unwanted. And we're told they were going shopping for Christmas gifts for Shawn (with no money).
Did TT's house have a basement? Maybe DA was downstairs.

Nope. Fort Worth houses don't have basements.

 

[Brightchaser47]

The statement on here (by V.I.) was that the plan was for ST to pick up Shawn on the 23rd, and return him to his dad on the 25th. We're asked to believe ST  did pick up Shawn at Minot, between 11:00 am and 1:00 pm, that day.
However,  if TT went to work that day, and  if Shawn was there, Rachel would not have invited DA to go shopping, because that would've meant Shawn being left alone in the house, unless DA  and Shawn went with Rachel to pick up Renee. That didn't happen.
There was no mention of anyone seeing just  Shawn with Rachel, when she picked up Renee and Julie at Gordon.

What's weird for me is DA says she didn't see ST and ST says she didn't see DA.

So ST claims she picked up Shawn  and saw all three girls, alive and well (I don't see how), somewhere between 11:00 and 1:00, but didn't see DA.
DA makes no mention of seeing either ST  or Shawn.
Still doesn't add up...( maybe none of them were there).

 

[Brightchaser47]

So ST claims she picked up Shawn  and saw all three girls, alive and well (I don't see how), somewhere between 11:00 and 1:00, but didn't see DA.
DA makes no mention of seeing either ST  or Shawn.
Still doesn't add up...( maybe none of them were there).

I've been focusing on alibis for DA and ST. Maybe this isn't about whether ST and DA were at Minot, but whether Rachel, Renee, and Julie were. Because the one thing DA's and ST's stories have in common, is that they both supposedly saw Rachel, at that time and place. They're both basically saying, "I didn't see so-and-so, but I  definitely saw Rachel". And TT is placing himself at work, so he's not backing either of their stories. Interesting...

 

[jetsfanjohn]

So ST claims she picked up Shawn  and saw all three girls, alive and well (I don't see how), somewhere between 11:00 and 1:00, but didn't see DA.
DA makes no mention of seeing either ST  or Shawn.
Still doesn't add up...( maybe none of them were there).

RSBM.

Maybe after making a phone call, and after the girls returned from the Mall, DA was collecting an enraged TT from his workplace to bring him home, at the time ST was there.

Hence why ST saw the girls but not DA.

 

[beubeubeu]

For someone who, "by her own admission" was one of the last people to see the girls that day, ST seems to have escaped close scrutiny (in my opinion).

If she indeed made these claims. Cause of course, like with most things here - I don't think we can be really sure if she did.
There is that alleged email send to DJ allegedly by her. But was it?
And somewhere out there there was a comment made by her son about her giving him contradicting stories. But I believe that he was talking only/mostly about his evening whereabouts (cause she allegedly kept telling him that she was taking care of him that evening... yet bowling alley girl had consistent and convincing version in which she was the one babysitting him).

That surely sounds like a big contradiction, but it doesn't really (I meant her son's input) make it clear:
- if she wrote that email?
- if her story about the day and interactions was like that email said - or was it slightly/significantly different than what anyone ever heard from her?
- if that afternoon sighting was her story from the day one how it ended up as something worth revealing in email to DJ so many years later? - people around the case should be aware
- if it wasn't then when it started? in 2001? why? she hadn't spoke before? nobody asked? nobody was listening? she got dismissed?
and so on...

Her 12:30 pm Minot sighting is  impossible, if the girls went to the mall, after the A/N Store. If the girls were killed  anytime that afternoon at Minot, her story is impossible. So either
1. Something happened to those girls that afternoon at Minot, and ST lied to protect someone,  or
2. ST was way off regarding the time of day she saw them, and they  were at Minot sometime that afternoon, but left, met trouble elsewhere, and the car was taken back to the mall and staged.

It's not impossible.
Assumming for a moment that neither of them lied or got confused/mistaken with timing.

1. DA is sleeping, Rachel wakes her up and asks if she wants to go to the mall - DA refuses, stays in bed.
2. Rachel takes the car and heads to the Gordon St. to pick up Renee (possibly visiting her mom on the way - maybe to invite her for shopping, maybe to fish out for some info about her parent's plans for the day - who knows).
3. Rachel arrives at the Gordon, Renee is ready but TM has other plans - they spend a bit of time there, and while they're there, they're making blurry plans about noon lunch meeting with the other two girls that will get lift from grandma. Julie joins Rachel and Renee.
4. Girls are going to the Army Navy to pick up Renee's layway.
5. On their way to the mall they're making another stop at Minot. DA still asleep in bed. Somehow they're ending up with little ST... cause maybe there was yet one more person babysitting him on that day and decided to drop him off with Rachel/TT.
6. Lacking any better ideas they're getting into the car with the child - to go to the mall with him, or maybe drop him off with someone who will watch him for a bit.
7. ST arrives, wants to take him so they go back home and sit for a bit while Rachel is gathering his stuff, DA still asleep in bed.
8. ST takes the kid and leaves seeing girls ready to go back to the car.
9. They indeed are going in and heading to the mall, possibly making some more quick stops on the way with whatever reasons.
10. They arrive at the mall. See CJG there briefly and go separate ways.
11. Girls are leaving the mall with someone they trusted and disappear from the face of the Earth.
12. After few hours ST drives to the workshop and leaves the kid with TT, or actually gives him a ride to the bowling alley.
...

Pretty stretched, but theoretically possible. Too many uncertaintities to create any solid attempt at even such theoretical timeline.

 

[beubeubeu]

Actually, there were different versions of that story, too.
1. ST claimed she stopped Rachel leaving (with the other girls), because she'd come to pick up Shawn. They all entered the house together, etc.
2. A neighbor (or a witness) saw Rachel's car leaving the driveway about 12:30 pm. Some have said the "witness" could be ST.

Oh yea, you're right, that's iffy too!
Cause it's not the same story.
In the 1st she emphasises a lot on the fact that she saw girls trying to leave, stopped them, spend some time with them chatting at home and left before they entered the car, saw them just looking_like_they_were_going_to_get_in but left before she could see them heading either way.
And the 2nd had someone, possibly her, driving Minot and seeing the car either leaving the driveway or ON the driveway.

Was this censored or misreported by whatever reason and still same 1st statement... or were there actually TWO whitnesses who saw the Oldsmobile there around that time?
But if two, then how the second whitness missed the ST's car? ST? 4 girls and toddler in the driveway?

And it sounds like everything happened at 12:30 PM!
- according to the MP report, that was exactly when DA last saw Rachel... but she said she haven't seen other girls,
- some unspecific whitness saw the Oldsmobile in the driveway... but haven't seen ST's car, ST's, just the car,
- ST was there, picking up Shawn but haven't seen DA

So what, everybody has highely selective perception and nobody is backing nobody elses story even in the tiniest detail.

 

[beubeubeu]

And we're told they were going shopping for Christmas gifts for Shawn (with no money).

Rachel had some money. And Renee had to have it too... unless she got only enough for layway.

 

[FW_Froggy]

If she indeed made these claims. Cause of course, like with most things here - I don't think we can be really sure if she did.
There is that alleged email send to DJ allegedly by her. But was it?
And somewhere out there there was a comment made by her son about her giving him contradicting stories. But I believe that he was talking only/mostly about his evening whereabouts (cause she allegedly kept telling him that she was taking care of him that evening... yet bowling alley girl had consistent and convincing version in which she was the one babysitting him).

That surely sounds like a big contradiction, but it doesn't really (I meant her son's input) make it clear:
- if she wrote that email?
- if her story about the day and interactions was like that email said - or was it slightly/significantly different than what anyone ever heard from her?
- if that afternoon sighting was her story from the day one how it ended up as something worth revealing in email to DJ so many years later? - people around the case should be aware
- if it wasn't then when it started? in 2001? why? she hadn't spoke before? nobody asked? nobody was listening? she got dismissed?
and so on...

It's not impossible.
Assumming for a moment that neither of them lied or got confused/mistaken with timing.

1. DA is sleeping, Rachel wakes her up and asks if she wants to go to the mall - DA refuses, stays in bed.
2. Rachel takes the car and heads to the Gordon St. to pick up Renee (possibly visiting her mom on the way - maybe to invite her for shopping, maybe to fish out for some info about her parent's plans for the day - who knows).
3. Rachel arrives at the Gordon, Renee is ready but TM has other plans - they spend a bit of time there, and while they're there, they're making blurry plans about noon lunch meeting with the other two girls that will get lift from grandma. Julie joins Rachel and Renee.
4. Girls are going to the Army Navy to pick up Renee's layway.
5. On their way to the mall they're making another stop at Minot. DA still asleep in bed. Somehow they're ending up with little ST... cause maybe there was yet one more person babysitting him on that day and decided to drop him off with Rachel/TT.
6. Lacking any better ideas they're getting into the car with the child - to go to the mall with him, or maybe drop him off with someone who will watch him for a bit.
7. ST arrives, wants to take him so they go back home and sit for a bit while Rachel is gathering his stuff, DA still asleep in bed.
8. ST takes the kid and leaves seeing girls ready to go back to the car.
9. They indeed are going in and heading to the mall, possibly making some more quick stops on the way with whatever reasons.
10. They arrive at the mall. See CJG there briefly and go separate ways.
11. Girls are leaving the mall with someone they trusted and disappear from the face of the Earth.
12. After few hours ST drives to the workshop and leaves the kid with TT, or actually gives him a ride to the bowling alley.
...

Pretty stretched, but theoretically possible. Too many uncertaintities to create any solid attempt at even such theoretical timeline.

Yep and DA says she last saw Rachel at 12:30pm at Minot But she doesn't know what she was wearing.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Rachel had some money. And Renee had to have it too... unless she got only enough for layway.

Somehow I was under the impression Renee had brought just enough for lay-away payoff, but I could be mistaken.

 

[beubeubeu]

Because the one thing DA's and ST's stories have in common, is that they both supposedly saw Rachel, at that time and place.

I don't think DA ever said anywhere that she saw Rachel around noon, it's only in the report. So even that doesn't match.
DA could be still asleep but how that little boy is travelling through the town and time? Magic or some more people involved in driving him around and leaving with whoever?

But Shawn's gift was on the floor behind the seat, not in the trunk.
Why would they place it there if Rachel was aware that Shawn is at Minot? Why not in the trunk?

So... Shawn somehow was at Minot, but seems like neither DA or Rachel who lived there weren't aware?

 

[Brightchaser47]

And it sounds like everything happened at 12:30 PM!
- according to the MP report, that was exactly when DA last saw Rachel... but she said she haven't seen other girls,

DA's report says she saw  only Rachel at 12:30?

So what, everybody has highely selective perception and nobody is backing nobody elses story even in the tiniest detail.

Sure looks that way.

 

[FW_Froggy]

I don't think DA ever said anywhere that she saw Rachel around noon, it's only in the report. So even that doesn't match.
DA could be still asleep but how that little boy is travelling through the town and time? Magic or some more people involved in driving him around and leaving with whoever?

But Shawn's gift was on the floor behind the seat, not in the trunk.
Why would they place it there if Rachel was aware that Shawn is at Minot? Why not in the trunk?

So... Shawn somehow was at Minot, but seems like neither DA or Rachel who lived there weren't aware?

Police reports make sense to me. On Gordon at 12:00 and on Minot at 12:30.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Police reports make sense to me. On Gordon at 12:00 and on Minot at 12:30.

If that's true, they weren't at the A/N store at noon.

 

[FW_Froggy]

If that's true, they weren't at the A/N store at noon.

Yep I figure they were at the A/N after 12:30 and then on to Seminary South.