TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Brightchaser47]

Its funny but something I read on TM's fb post stuck with me ( its still there on a public post). Someone asked him if he knew RW had gone inside to make a phonecall after JM was allowed to go shopping with them, and his answer ( to paraphrase) was that 'he didn't know what happened after he thought the girls left'

It could have just been odd wording but it made me wonder if the timeline was slightly different than we have always been told in regards to how long they were at Gordon and how quickly they left after JM called her mum for permission. It also made me wonder if the girls originally pulled away but stopped further down the block for some reason. Maybe to visit another house, or speak to someone, or offer someone else a lift. Maybe CJG was further down the block and they stopped to pick him up.

I maybe overthinking it but I can't shake the feeling that more happened than is being told by those there, and I do have a big question mark regarding TM and VB/CJG.

I've wondered if TM suspected something (regarding VB) but was reluctant to accuse him. His (TM's) little sister and girlfriend were gone, and VB was his friend. The way others have described it, there may've even been a little "hero worship" there. VB allegedly tried to persuade TM to lie for him about that day.

 

[Pricklykitty]

I've wondered if TM suspected something (regarding VB) but was reluctant to accuse him. His (TM's) little sister and girlfriend were gone, and VB was his friend. The way others have described it, there may've even been a little "hero worship" there. VB allegedly tried to persuade TM to lie for him about that day.

I kinda wonder if he knows VB was with the girls at some point that day, but had already given his alibi ( which isn't very water tight) to police so couldn't then back VB up. Its odd to me that he would acknowledge VB asking him for an alibi but still defend him whole heartedly if he, TM, doesn't know more about that day than he says publicly.

 

[beubeubeu]

This is debatable. Although DJ claimed to supposedly have full access to the case files, someone on an earlier thread claimed DJ only had access to a few records (not sure how they knew that, since LE is supposedly so tightlipped). So, maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

Sorry, I haven't made it clear enough that it's just my opinion that he had that access.
He was working with case files in Fort Worth (not this specific case files, case files in general) for God knows how many years and in what extent.
During that time local LE likely had no reason to connect him to this case, cause he had no official ties to it, and probably he wasn't doing any freelance PI jobs apart from what he had to work as a defendant's office official "PI".
So they had no reason to be on guard, he could be doing some archivist's tasks or using an excuse that he's checking if everything is archived right and getting access to this case files while doing it.
I can't imagine him being unable to do that if:
a) he wanted to get it,
b) he was kinda working there as well.
And I can't find any reason for some random guy (who wasn't a cop or investigator, nor even a PI hired by family) to get access to some of the case files officially. Cause why? Why? If he could get it just like that, then either anyone or hundreds, possibly thousands guys doing kinda-official kinda-investigating job could get access to it. Was FW police dep. allowing any random loon to look through some of their case files?

Also while reading random articles and trying to figure out what his PI job at the def.'s office was I kept stumbling on mentions that those guys are much more effective in their work than independent PI's.
Just my conspiracy theory, but sounds to me like they have, on average, much better access to case files and much better communication with cops by default.

I'm beginning to wonder about that...

Oh, and also this.
This is part of the article from '75.
I have no idea how I managed to miss it and overlook the fact that guy is ensuring the public that girls are runaways and that they all authored the note that ended up delivered to TT.
Not LE, highly praised Swaim was doing that, months after their disappearance.

Like it wasn't enough that only tip line ended up to be publicly in press as A's house instead of cops.
And I can give FA a pass with that. It was 1974, she may not know any better and do that with all the best intentions, to get as much info as possible.
But one thing, or even two things there.

First - she may be righit, cause it looks like at least one highly suspicious tip provided to LE was ignored for over 25 years and not followed at all by cops (I mean the one from Sears security chief).
Second - it seems like coincidentally all important calls with info about the girls were made to A's home. That opens up a possibility that they were faking some of those - maybe not, but still, for the investigation's sake it'd be better if cops were getting it straight. Or it wouldn't, if what LE got wasn't investigated at all.

And the end of the article:

So this "Dirty Harry" insider, just months after the disappearance was only interested in surrendering only directly to the district attorney's office... wouldn't it be sort of where DJ was professionally hanging out?

That's what  really disturbs me about this case.  Nothing about it is workable. There's very little consistency. Virtually no one's statements agree. Did everybody have something to hide?

It can't be just that. People are people, almost everyone has "something" to hide. Lies, changing stories, vague or inconsistent alibis, failing memory, wrong recollections, less confident people ending up convinced that they saw what the more confident whitness is saying that they saw - cases without that or with very little of that are getting solved quickly. There is nothing unusual about it. More people connected to the case, more interviewed, more mess follows.
But that's investigators job to make sense out of it. And they do, on the daily basis.
Here it looks like those who were supposed to make sense out of it set their goal on trying to show the least sense it could possibly make.

 

[beubeubeu]

RSBM. I also remember reading a quote from TM stating that they didn't leave his house for the Mall at 12.00pm that day, but in fact a lot earlier, around 10.30am, I think.

This could explain why they did not meet their friends at the Mall at 1.00pm and would possibly be consistent with the alleged sighting at Minot (at 12.30pm I think ?), if they had already returned from the Mall at that stage.

I don't believe there was any confirmed or even alleged sightings of the girls after the sighting at Minot Ave ?

Where it was stated that they left Gordon at 12:00 PM?
It seemed pretty consistent with the approx time of their visit at the Army Navy that they indeed left around 10:30, at it was repeated everywhere.
Lunch at the mall was supposed to happen at noon, not 1 PM, and there is no way that they could get to the mall from Army Navy and back at Minot to be there around 12:30 PM.
There were plenty of alleged sightings of the girls after 12:30 and some from the mall had to be confirmed somewhat if cops concluded that they were there.

 

[beubeubeu]

It's fact Rachel arranged to meet CJG at the mall? I had thought he was present at Gordon, when Rachel picked up Renee and Julie, but wasn't sure it was confirmed.

That was PI's story...

 

[beubeubeu]

I kinda wonder if he knows VB was with the girls at some point that day, but had already given his alibi ( which isn't very water tight) to police so couldn't then back VB up. Its odd to me that he would acknowledge VB asking him for an alibi but still defend him whole heartedly if he, TM, doesn't know more about that day than he says publicly.

I (and probably not just me) saw, at the place that shouldn't be mentioned here some pretty clear indication that he knew. He had to know. Everybody knew about the alleged sighting reported to A's next day in which the person allegedly described CJG at the mall with girls. It's not something that any sane person (IMO) could just brush off and disregard without making sure if he was there or not.
Maybe TM got some convincing explanation about VB's wherabouts on that day but cause it wasn't something that could be told officially without causing him trouble, they set on this weirdness.

I've wondered if TM suspected something (regarding VB) but was reluctant to accuse him. His (TM's) little sister and girlfriend were gone, and VB was his friend. The way others have described it, there may've even been a little "hero worship" there. VB allegedly tried to persuade TM to lie for him about that day.

In his own (TM's) words it sounds like there was a lot of hero worship going on.
And the whole CJG timeline is as crazy as everything else here.
So allegedly CJG was first person that came in Renee's dad's mind when they havent came back home - but as far as I understood he wasn't suspecting that he harmed the girls but that he's responsible for them going somewhere they shouldn't be instead of straight home as they should.
That may be the reason why cops got interested in speaking with him so quickly - with this alleged, and likely exagerrated "roadblock" made just to ask him few questions in the morning that came from DJ.
So then he was just coming back from work and had some friend who gave him a lift that could support his whereabouts at least so some degree... and he said exactly that, but at some point later he asked TM to say that they spend afternoon together, drinking whisky - also after TM already said that he was visiting another friend in hospital.
Or maybe they WERE drinking whiskey, starting as soon as girls left, drank some, TM being 14 got drunkish faster, VB slightly intoxicated went to the mall and spend some time with the girls, and whole mess here appeared cause TM was too ashamed to admit that he could be with the girls, possibly prevent all that from happening but he choosed to drink whiskey at home instead. And he was the one who made VB's alibi inconsistent.

I just don't get why girls would head together back to Minot with or without VB.
If they were together at the mall, they could stay there and spend time together there.
If they wanted more intimacy than crowded mall can offer... then why not go to the W's house (that should be empty till 4 PM) or M's house, where they could pretend that they're waiting for TM or their mom to come back?
What kind of intimacy house at Minot could offer - with DA at home, with Julie, and with TT possibly coming back from work earlier cause it was almost Christmas time?
It sounds like terrible idea to have all excited Julie with them, Julie that was fully aware that her brother just gave Renee promise ring, and likely knowing who VB was - and to hang out with him, in any way that could be even remotely inappropriate on Renee's part sounds utterly ridiculous. And if it wasn't Renee but Rachel - then why risk that this kid that barely knows her will spill the beans about aunty Rachel kissing VB? Why not finish shopping, drop the younger girls off, making sure that everything looks normal for Julie, and then practice some improper activities in the car?

 

[Brightchaser47]

So allegedly CJG was first person that came in Renee's dad's mind when they havent came back home - but as far as I understood he wasn't suspecting that he harmed the girls but that he's responsible for them going somewhere they shouldn't be instead of straight home as they should.

Interesting. So where might that have been? Was there someplace close by that was abandoned or off the beaten path that was a local teen hangout? I know it's been suggested on here the girls might've gone somewhere to do drugs, but I don't buy that.

I just don't get why girls would head together back to Minot with or without VB.

I'm not 100% convinced the girls  were there. I'm not convinced  Shawn was there. I'm not sure why.

If they were together at the mall, they could stay there and spend time together there.
If they wanted more intimacy than crowded mall can offer... then why not go to the W's house (that should be empty till 4 PM) or M's house, where they could pretend that they're waiting for TM or their mom to come back?
What kind of intimacy house at Minot could offer - with DA at home, with Julie, and with TT possibly coming back from work earlier cause it was almost Christmas time?
It sounds like terrible idea to have all excited Julie with them, Julie that was fully aware that her brother just gave Renee promise ring, and likely knowing who VB was - and to hang out with him, in any way that could be even remotely inappropriate on Renee's part sounds utterly ridiculous. And if it wasn't Renee but Rachel - then why risk that this kid that barely knows her will spill the beans about aunty Rachel kissing VB? Why not finish shopping, drop the younger girls off, making sure that everything looks normal for Julie, and then practice some improper activities in the car?

I agree.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Was ST working anywhere or receiving child support from TT when this happened?

 

[FW_Froggy]

Where it was stated that they left Gordon at 12:00 PM?
It seemed pretty consistent with the approx time of their visit at the Army Navy that they indeed left around 10:30, at it was repeated everywhere.
Lunch at the mall was supposed to happen at noon, not 1 PM, and there is no way that they could get to the mall from Army Navy and back at Minot to be there around 12:30 PM.
There were plenty of alleged sightings of the girls after 12:30 and some from the mall had to be confirmed somewhat if cops conclude

On Renee's police report by her mother it said she was last seen on Gordon by Mr. A. L. W. at noon.

 

[T rex]

Was the Arlington shop in a building it shared with other businesses? If so, what were those businesses?

It looks like the entire place was known as the Collins Exchange Center and yes there was other businesses. Other mechanic shops at various times, an antique and auction house and probably some more.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Surely some stories changed, but how to tell how much of that is just him making things up?
And his whole career was messing things up proffessionally, finding just the exact info to set defendants free.

But, he was generally well paid for this, if I understood correctly. He was supposedly working this particular case for free.

Best case scenario he was terrible and unproffesional at his job. Worst - his actions were meant as distraction and diversion to make sure that the ones responsible wont face consequences

I'm having a hard time understanding his motive. Was he really trying to find the girls, and failing miserably? We've been asked to believe he'd followed this case virtually since the day it happened.  If he were that knowledgeable about the case, and had access to all those records, and  if he'd known and/or worked with JS on it, then DJ of all people should've had this case solved. Unless, there was a reason for it not to be. Because again, there was no known financial incentive here (for DJ). He was offering his own money (supposedly), as a reward. "A" family- broke. TT- waiting three years for his inheritance. So what was the deal?

 

[Brightchaser47]

It looks like the entire place was known as the Collins Exchange Center and yes there was other businesses. Other mechanic shops at various times, an antique and auction house and probably some more.

If any of the other businesses in the building would've been open on the 23rd, it might not've been the best time and place for a murder (or three).There's question as to whether the neighbors would've seen or heard anything suspicious at the house on Minot. I wonder the same thing about the shop.

 

[T rex]

If any of the other businesses in the building would've been open on the 23rd, it might not've been the best time and place for a murder (or three).There's question as to whether the neighbors would've seen or heard anything suspicious at the house on Minot. I wonder the same thing about the shop.

It wasn't all in one building, it was several garages and buildings spread out over a good size tract of land with train tracks seperating it. There was also space for junk cars behind some of these shops. That's about the best I can make of it with the information I've been able to find and the sattelite images. I'm still back and forth over how many of these places the A's had, one or possibly two.

 

[beubeubeu]

On Renee's police report by her mother it said she was last seen on Gordon by Mr. A. L. W. at noon.

I remember, but...
Wait
Maybe nobody lied?

DA was in bed as she said, and Rachel woke her up to ask if she wants to go to the mall sometime before 10 PM.
Then Rachel went to pick up Renee at Gordon St. TM refused to go with them as well as both other girls. Julie wanted to go but needed her mother's permission.
That may be when TM left... as well as Rachel & Renee - heading to the Army Navy to pick up her jeans.
And then, got back at Gordon to check on her (possibly hoping that she won't get permission).
Then VB showed up, either invited or not (possibly even after some drinking with TM already) as well as Julie with news that she got permission.
Even if Renee or/and Rachel wanted to spend some time with VB, they may not want him and Julie around in the same time - that would make sense of them suddenly being rude towards him (to discorage him from wanting to join).

But why and how would they end up on Minot close to 12:30?
So like straight from Gordon, but after Army Navy and before Mall.
Possibly no Julie at Army Navy, but not only Julie but also little ST with them at Minot.
Could he be left alone at Minot?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Possibly no Julie at Army Navy, but not only Julie but also little ST with them at Minot.
Could he be left alone at Minot?

DA would've been there (if her story is accurate), possibly still asleep, but she claimed  Shawn wasn't there that day. If that's true, ST had no reason to be there. I can see the possibility of DA being asleep, not knowing there are people in the house (especially, if she's  sound asleep). That would also explain how ST didn't see her.  But, it still doesn't explain Shawn. Unless DA was barricaded in her bedroom, drunk or high, she should've noticed a two-year-old in the house. Not to imply anything, but that's the  only way I see that working. IMO

 

[Pricklykitty]

Shawn seems to be the hot potato no one wants to hold, but why?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Shawn seems to be the hot potato no one wants to hold, but why?

Thank you. I personally think he may be the key to the whole thing. I wonder if those involved  hoped or  assumed he was too little to understand or remember anything, and therefore not a threat. And yet, he provides an alibi, when needed. Another  remote possibility is that something accidental happened, somehow involving him. I've also wondered if he's ever considered undergoing hypnosis. A polygraph would be pointless, but hypnosis might reveal something of value.

 

[beubeubeu]

DA would've been there (if her story is accurate), possibly still asleep, but she claimed  Shawn wasn't there that day. If that's true, ST had no reason to be there. I can see the possibility of DA being asleep, not knowing there are people in the house (especially, if she's  sound asleep). That would also explain how ST didn't see her.  But, it still doesn't explain Shawn. Unless DA was barricaded in her bedroom, drunk or high, she should've noticed a two-year-old in the house. Not to imply anything, but that's the  only way I see that working. IMO

Shawn's presence seems to be somewhat unexpected. Cause who would place a gift for 2yo child inside the car that child is going to get in or may get in? Trunk sounds so much better.
Could be that she was asleep/out when Shawn was left at Minot. If he was pretty tired or interested in something, he could be silent enough to go unnoticed by sleeping person.
But there is just not enough time between Noon at Gordon and around 12:30 after all that chatting with ST, still before mall.

I can even imagine how ST could be both right with approx time of last sighting of Rachel/all girls. Possibly DA woke up only after ST left and briefly spoke to/saw Rachel.
It's theoretically explainable how could one be sure that Shawn wasn't there while the other was sure that he was...
But where was he?
Could it be that Rachel ended up with him in the morning and was too afraid of driving with him so much she left him with someone who lived nearby to go get Renee and came back to pick him up?

 

[beubeubeu]

Shawn seems to be the hot potato no one wants to hold, but why?

Some kids have it like that, especially in the older days and with young parents. With dozens of people babysiting them as someone had the time. But even that should be easy to explain, even if he had dozen different babysitters on that day.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Cause who would place a gift for 2yo child inside the car that child is going to get in or may get in? Trunk sounds so much better.

Good point.

Could be that she was asleep/out when Shawn was left at Minot.

But if you're referring to Shawn being left on the 22nd, the only one expected to be home the next day was DA (maybe). Rachel's trip was planned on the 22nd. TT was going to be working (supposedly). If it was an "emergency drop-off", I'd think either Rachel or TT would've had to change plans, to be home, to babysit. We're told TT "left Rachel the car, so she could go shopping on the 23rd". If DA was expected to babysit, she would've had to know Shawn was there. Surely, both Rachel and TT wouldn't just up and leave for the day with "oh, well-- DA can watch him".

If he was pretty tired or interested in something, he could be silent enough to go unnoticed by sleeping person.

For a while, maybe, but not for very long-- not at age two (hungry, potty, etc). IMO