TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

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Wise Old Owl

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i have to chime in here with Gitana1 about arming teachers.

NO NO AND A GREAT BIG HELLO NO!!!!

And here's why-

First, yes, I've been involved in a school shooting. LONG time ago - and no, no one was shot. It was a drive-by on the street right next to the school. The school had a walkway right along the path of the street (campus was fenced) but this walkway was close to (could have been an actual sidewalk for the street - that's how close).
My students were lining up on that sidewalk when another teacher from further down came running yelling "shooter". I was in the doorway of my room and I actually saw the muzzle blasts.

DON'T ARM TEACHERS.

When you are in a school shooting situation - in the moment - it is CHAOS. People and kids screaming, everyone is running. Now you have an armed teacher - they can't carry - so they have to go get the gun. LE is being summoned and depending where they are they could be there fast. MORE CHAOS. LE is coming into that school HOT - guns drawn. ANY person coming around a corner with a gun in hand - well, those cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later. LE is not going to know who the designated carriers are in the school. If you start to arm teachers - you are going to end up with teachers being shot by LE> I guarantee it!!!!


JMHO
 
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steeltowngirl

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<modsnip> teachers should be focused on teaching. Not being LE, IMO.

Teachers are regular people. And regular people make too many mistakes. Regular people can have mental health issues. <modsnip>

In addition, when someone conceal-carry’s,there tends to be a hyper alertness, a totally different mindset (in my experience). Ready for battle.

The thought of arming teachers for battle is insane to me. Backup should be trained LE and they should do their job and be paid well to do it.

No way in hell would I want teachers armed in my kid’s classroom. Even if they had “training.” What training? What re-training? Any tests? Who would oversee that? There’s just way too much room for not only liability but fatal error.

There are just way too many accidents and killings with guns that are owned by people who have been trained in their use and safety. Huge amounts. Every day.

And what about when some crazy student decided to overpower a teacher and take their gun?

This idea is a perilous, illogical one, IMO. The only people who should be tasked with going to war with the bad guys in order to protect the public are those for whom that is their sole responsibility.

We don’t need more guns in school.
Florida state allowed it in 2019, then most of the school districts rejected it. The schools do not want it. I’ve yet to meet a teacher that wants to carry in class.

JMO
 
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WingsOverTX

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Florida state allowed it in 2019, then most of the school districts rejected it. The schools do not want it. I’ve yet to meet a teacher that wants to carry in class.

JMO
Plus teachers are not infallible. What if an armed teacher becomes a shooter instead of a protector? What if he/she is overpowered and that weapon becomes a tool of a perp?

Campuses with a lot of entrances and buildings make SRO coverage difficult and very expensive if each has to have coverage. Uvalde schools don't even have one full-time SRO at each campus, never mind the many buildings at Robb.

MOO
 

zecats

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WOW
Thank you for this. I guess since the are no suite rooms - that works.

Have to ask - so when you go to lunch - when you are bringing them back from lunch how to do you get in the hallway doors to be able to get to the classroom?
I think I know what you're asking....I'm in a high school, so students go to lunch on their own during one of 4 scheduled blocks of time. Teachers do the same. I'm back in the room before the next group of students have to enter and I leave the magnet there until I enter the room.

But even in the elementary schools, no one leaves the building for lunch. They eat in the cafeteria and the teachers eat in faculty room. There are security principals/ vice principals on duty in the cafeteria during lunches.
 

RANCH

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It would be a long list if I had to cite to every case in the last 10 years of crazy teachers. Teachers attacking students. Faking hate crimes. Molesting students. Making them drink their semen. Murdering people.

Of course the vast majority are great people. But teachers should be focused on teaching. Not being LE, IMO.

Teachers are regular people. And regular people make too many mistakes. Regular people can have mental health issues. I personally know a teacher who was forced out of her job because she went psychotic. For a SECOND time. She was allowed back in the classroom after the first time.

In addition, when someone conceal-carry’s,there tends to be a hyper alertness, a totally different mindset (in my experience). Ready for battle.

The thought of arming teachers for battle is insane to me. Backup should be trained LE and they should do their job and be paid well to do it.

No way in hell would I want teachers armed in my kid’s classroom. Even if they had “training.” What training? What re-training? Any tests? Who would oversee that? There’s just way too much room for not only liability but fatal error.

There are just way too many accidents and killings with guns that are owned by people who have been trained in their use and safety. Huge amounts. Every day.

And what about when some crazy student decided to overpower a teacher and take their gun?

This idea is a perilous, illogical one, IMO. The only people who should be tasked with going to war with the bad guys in order to protect the public are those for whom that is their sole responsibility.

We don’t need more guns in school.
Cops are regular people no different than teachers. Just a different career choice. I'm not going to debate whether more guns in school are bad or there are trained gun owners who do bad things because that will take this into gun control which is against TOS.

I'm really confused with your idea for having highly paid armed LE officers at schools but no other trained individuals. If cost is not a factor then paying for school staff who volunteer to get proper gun safety training should also be no problem.

Personally I favor keeping the bad guys outside of the schools with adequate fencing, door locks and a single managed entry point for vistors over armed teachers. JMO.
 

MimosaMornings

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That is interesting. In ALL my years teaching - I NEVER had a door with a knob on the inside of the room that you had to turn to lock it. NEVER. And the outside of the door in the picture doesn't have a handle. That would never fly in a school. Teachers, admins, and even more so students - come and go all day long and to have to have someone go to the door to open it every time for them..... nope.
That article is from the National Fire Prevention Association. I think the schools association is a little different - the doors have to have handles from the outside - some, maybe even a lot, of the inside doors can have those "bars" that you just push and they open.
Thanks, I was wondering if that applied to schools.
 

Wise Old Owl

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I think I know what you're asking....I'm in a high school, so students go to lunch on their own during one of 4 scheduled blocks of time. Teachers do the same. I'm back in the room before the next group of students have to enter and I leave the magnet there until I enter the room.

But even in the elementary schools, no one leaves the building for lunch. They eat in the cafeteria and the teachers eat in faculty room. There are security principals/ vice principals on duty in the cafeteria during lunches.
ok - so it is a totally enclosed campus? You said the hallway doors are locked - how do students come and go to different classes through locked hallway doors? Or do the hallway doors just go outside and the students don't need them because the campus is enclosed and access to all other classrooms is within those bounds?
 

RANCH

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OK - sorry. You know - I have wondered that myself. I had a "suite" partner one year that NEVER EVER locked her door. This concerned me greatly as it was a "suite" room and that put my students at risk as well.

Maybe the locks like that (turn once and open - without having to turn back to lock) are more expensive? IDK Whoever won the business contract bid from the school board got the job. But those would certainly be much better and safer - helps to avoid the "human factor".
One thing to remember, the most expensive reinforced door with a foolproof lock will not work if someone decides it's okay to prop the door open for some reason or another. JMO.
 

HMSHood

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This is becoming a giant Charlie Foxtrot.

I still think Salvador Ramos is an injustice collector like Elliot Rodger, Eric Harris, Nikolas Cruz, Adam Lanza, Seung-Hui Cho, Omar Mateen, Stephen Paddock, Anders Breivik, Vladislav Roslyakov, Genildo Ferreira de França, Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik, Martin Bryant, Thomas Hamilton, and Osama bin Laden.
 

na19

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That is interesting. In ALL my years teaching - I NEVER had a door with a knob on the inside of the room that you had to turn to lock it. NEVER. And the outside of the door in the picture doesn't have a handle. That would never fly in a school. Teachers, admins, and even more so students - come and go all day long and to have to have someone go to the door to open it every time for them..... nope.
That article is from the National Fire Prevention Association. I think the schools association is a little different - the doors have to have handles from the outside - some, maybe even a lot, of the inside doors can have those "bars" that you just push and they open.
Agree with this. I taught in a public school and a private school (I'm a SAHM now) and never saw any doors that locked from the inside.

Was the classroom door locked? I thought I read he shot through the glass of the door.
 

WingsOverTX

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I never heard the teacher speak before. And now it’s been confirmed. Door was shut.

A timeline of how the Texas school massacre -- and the police response -- unfolded
A timeline of how the Texas school massacre -- and the police response -- unfolded
But not locked :(

 

na19

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The "floor plan" released by DPS is not adequate to draw any conclusions, IMHO.

In fact, I would suggest it could be misleading due to its simplicity with only numbers for the rooms. With all the misinformation we have seen, can we trust this mockup?

Why are there question marks on the arrows outside the entrance to the adjoined rooms assumed to have been occupied by the 4th graders and teachers Ruiz & Garcia?

Why are all rooms not marked as to their use? Is this floor plan just one building or two adjoining buildings? Looking above from outside, it looks like two to me.

Why are children reporting they hid in the cafeteria/auditorium? Is that part of the floor plan for this building, meaning there are two cafeterias on campus (see labeled diagram below)? It shows a cafeteria on the other side of the campus. I doubt there were two. But maybe an area in this building also serves as an auditorium?

What was happening in all the other rooms during the incident? There are pics of children exiting windows. Which rooms are those and what ages are those children?

Where is the closet located that SR supposedly exited from when the BP agents finally breached "the" door & which door? Did this adjoining classroom setup have two doors into the hallway or not?

Are there any cameras inside this building anywhere? Is this the only building involved in this incident? How many students normally attend school in this building and what ages?

I could go on and on. Until I know much, much more is clear and triple verified, I personally am trusting nothing.

Source:

Cafeteria lower right:
View attachment 347248

The last classroom I taught in was joined with another classroom with a shared closet in the middle. Each classroom had it's own hallway door. Maybe that is how these classrooms were set up.
 

zecats

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ok - so it is a totally enclosed campus? You said the hallway doors are locked - how do students come and go to different classes through locked hallway doors? Or do the hallway doors just go outside and the students don't need them because the campus is enclosed and access to all other classrooms is within those bounds?
Teachers stand at their open doors while classes are changing and monitor the passing in the hallways while also letting students into the classroom. Then close the door to start class. Most prop the door with a stopper while waiting for all to enter because they are heavy doors and they shut automatically. Students do not leave the school building unless being signed out by a parent, or, in the case of seniors, some have early dismissal. They leave through the main doors after signing out. Or they may leave through the student parking lot doors, which close automatically behind them.
 

RANCH

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i have to chime in here with Gitana1 about arming teachers.

NO NO AND A GREAT BIG HELLO NO!!!!

And here's why-

First, yes, I've been involved in a school shooting. LONG time ago - and no, no one was shot. It was a drive-by on the street right next to the school. The school had a walkway right along the path of the street (campus was fenced) but this walkway was close to (could have been an actual sidewalk for the street - that's how close).
My students were lining up on that sidewalk when another teacher from further down came running yelling "shooter". I was in the doorway of my room and I actually saw the muzzle blasts.

DON'T ARM TEACHERS.

When you are in a school shooting situation - in the moment - it is CHAOS. People and kids screaming, everyone is running. Now you have an armed teacher - they can't carry - so they have to go get the gun. LE is being summoned and depending where they are they could be there fast. MORE CHAOS. LE is coming into that school HOT - guns drawn. ANY person coming around a corner with a gun in hand - well, those cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later. LE is not going to know who the designated carriers are in the school. If you start to arm teachers - you are going to end up with teachers being shot by LE> I guarantee it!!!!


JMHO
Number one there's no reason why a teacher or other school staff member cannot conceal carry a handgun and number two LE should not shoot at people who simply have a gun in their hand.

A trained person knows to not point their gun at someone who they do not wish to kill. So you keep the gun pointed up or down away from innocent people.

Cops should not shoot a person who is not an immediate threat and a person who has their gun pointed in a safe direction is not an immediate threat. They may yell "drop the gun" but not automatically shoot an armed staff member. JMO.
 

Facinatingtimes

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Just a thought: National Tipline devoted to threats towards schools, or pertaining to mass shootings and gun violence?

Maybe there needs to be a National tipline devoted just to threats? How many kids, and teens feel safe calling the FBI? Have you ever had to call? Some agents are rude and dismissive and intimidating not sure I would be brave enough at age 10 to do it.
“The district encourages parents or students to contact Safer Schools Ohio at 1(844)723-3764 if they have a safety concern at school. The tip line accepts calls and texts 24 hours a day. Tipsters can remain anonymous. The information is forwarded to school threat assessment teams and law enforcement.”
Tips from students lead to arrest of local high schooler

Looks like Ohio has a tip line, but not sure that it is a database. Also unsure of how known this line is, and if it’s being used at all. In this case above, the tips came directly from students to either the district or LE.
 

Wise Old Owl

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Number one there's no reason why a teacher or other school staff member cannot conceal carry a handgun and number two LE should not shoot at people who simply have a gun in their hand.

A trained person knows to not point their gun at someone who they do not wish to kill. So you keep the gun pointed up or down away from innocent people.

Cops should not shoot a person who is not an immediate threat and a person who has their gun pointed in a safe direction is not an immediate threat. They may yell "drop the gun" but not automatically shoot an armed staff member. JMO.
Accidents happen.........................always

Like this one -

Gun goes off at health clinic after woman drops purse; 1 shot in leg​


I know I know - the safety was probably off. But even so

Teachers, real teachers - we are busy - we are working with kids closely all day. Having a gun on my person while trying to maneuver around desks, handing out textbooks, setting up a science experiment, etc. is just not feasible - at all. And then there is the human factor - again - the kids. What are you going to do if a kid manages to get his hands on that gun? Nope - nope.

Like Mammy would say, "It ain't fittin', it ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'. It ain't fittin'!"

And I have to add - any LE responding to an active school shooter scene who spots a person with a gun is most certainly NOT going to yell "DROP YOUR WEAPON" before firing. If he does - he could be dead.

But that is JMHO
 
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RANCH

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Florida state allowed it in 2019, then most of the school districts rejected it. The schools do not want it. I’ve yet to meet a teacher that wants to carry in class.

JMO
If no one voluntarily wants to go through the hoops of testing and training to qualify for concealed carry on a school campus that fine with me.

Not so sure about a total ban on it though. JMO.
 

RANCH

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Accidents happen.........................always

Like this one -

Gun goes off at health clinic after woman drops purse; 1 shot in leg​


I know I know - the safety was probably off. But even so

Teachers, real teachers - we are busy - we are working with kids closely all day. Having a gun on my person while trying to maneuver around desks, handing out textbooks, setting up a science experiment, etc. is just not feasible - at all. And then there is the human factor - again - the kids. What are you going to do if a kid manages to get his hands on that gun? Nope - nope.

Like Mammy would say - "it ain't fittin', it ain't fittin' it just ain't fittin'. It ain't fittin'.!"


JMHO
Doesn't sound like concealed carry of a firearm at school is right for you. I can appreciate that. JMO.
 

gitana1

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Cops are regular people no different than teachers. Just a different career choice. I'm not going to debate whether more guns in school are bad or there are trained gun owners who do bad things because that will take this into gun control which is against TOS.

I'm really confused with your idea for having highly paid armed LE officers at schools but no other trained individuals. If cost is not a factor then paying for school staff who volunteer to get proper gun safety training should also be no problem.

Personally I favor keeping the bad guys outside of the schools with adequate fencing, door locks and a single managed entry point for vistors over armed teachers. JMO.
I’m sorry but there is a radical differ cR between trained law enforcement and teachers. Cops make a living knowing how to use a gun and protect people. Teachers do not. Moreover, police have to take psych tests to become law enforcement.

And again, you’re not coming up with how teachers are supposed to teach while also acting as armed guards. It’s just not compatible, IMO. Not logical.
 
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