TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[Friday Fan]

@nytimes
The police chief who oversaw the response to a mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, arrived on scene without his police radio, a law enforcement official said. A tactical team ultimately ignored directives not to breach the classroom

Using a cellphone, the chief called a police land line with a message that set the stage for what would prove to be a disastrous delay in interrupting the attack: The gunman has an AR-15, he told them, but he is contained; we need more firepower and we need the building surrounded…

The officers who finally breached the locked classrooms with a janitor’s key were not a formal tactical unit, according to a person briefed on the response. The officers, including specially trained Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and a sheriff’s deputy, formed an ad hoc group on their own and gathered in the hallway outside the classroom, a tense space where they said there appeared to be no chain of command…

They continued even after one of them heard a command crackling in his ear piece: Do not breach.

As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him in the head.

A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border Patrol agents.

Here are the biggest shifts in the official account of the Uvalde school shooting

"There's been a lot of things that have been said — some are correct, some are incorrect," Gov. Greg Abbott said the day after the shooting. But soon afterward, he would correct his own statements.

www.npr.org

OMG!!
I read this earlier in the DM and NYPost and assumed it was tabloid and took it with a grain of salt.

From the NY Times article:

11:35 a.m. UCISD police chief arrives
Two minutes later, a lieutenant and a sergeant from the Uvalde Police Department approached the door, and were grazed by bullets.
Shortly after UCISD chief placed a phone call from the scene, reaching a police department land line. Requested a radio, a rifle and a contingent of heavily armed officers,

Also campus police at another district were critical of the fact that the Uvalde CISD PD did not carry keys to each classroom.

I spoke with former principal about this and he said campus police at his district had all of the classroom keys, but he stated that he did not know what the policy was in other districts

 

[Friday Fan]

The teacher who stated that the doors lock only from the inside is not the same teacher who put the rock in the door. The doors lock/unlock from the outside
Perhaps the teacher who stated that doors lock only from the inside misspoke to the press. (NO is the teacher who said the doors lock on the inside. EM is the teacher who closed the door)

 

[PrairieWind]

yep yep and yep

BUT - "door can only be locked from the inside" - THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Panic/Fire doors - which is what this is (that's what they call them) - they have that "bar" on the inside of the door that all you have to do is push and the door opens - ALL those doors I have ever encountered - albeit schools, courthouses, stadiums, hotels, etc. - the "key hole" for that door is on the "opposite side" or egress side of the door - NEVER on the same side as the "bar". They are not to be locked on the inside (meaning the inside part of the door always has to be open - push the bar - in case of fire or other immediate evacuation) So the only way that door is locked is on the outside - you can lock someone OUT of that door BUT you can't lock someone INSIDE with that door -does that make sense?

That door had a key lock hole on the outside and someone had to have unlocked it for that door to be opened by the shooter from the outside. Or........................................they can always "find" that the door mechanism "failed" when the teacher shut it and "didn't properly engage". And , JMHO, that is where this whole "open door" narrative is going to go................................................................sad


JMHO

A crash bar or panic bar door can be locked and unlocked from inside. There is usually a small hole on the bar or the bar bracket. You put a hex tool and turn. This holds the bar down and allows people outside to enter freely. Turn the hex tool the other way and the bar will release. Then the door will latch when closed. This allows people inside to exit, but not allow entry from outside. So this door was apparently unlocked. The teacher maybe had propped it open with a rock, but actually didn't need too.
The fact that there was a rock right there by the door tells us that it was frequently propped open. The principal or custodian should see that and remove any such items. But, regardless, the teacher did pull the door shut when she heard the shooting. She clearly assumed it would latch, but the door was not in that configuration, it was still unlocked. Did the shooter know this? Or did he just get lucky? It could be that he had previously cased the school and saw that that particular door was frequently propped open.

 

[Dotta]

I hoped to read an account that would clarify exactly how many teachers were outside but instead, I'm more confused:

EM was walking outside, saw the crash, and went inside to call 911 -- leaving the propped door open. When EM returned to the (open) door, still on the phone with 911, she saw her co-worker fleeing, and heard people at the funeral home (across the street) warning SR had a gun. When EM saw SR approaching, she kicked the door shut.

Was the fleeing co-worker outside? Was the fleeing co-worker the first teacher to prop open the door with a rock?

Yesterday's account by NO, a 4th-grade teacher, claims an unnamed staff member went out the door to collect their cell phone.

That day, Ogburn said, the staff member, who she declined to name, had gone out to retrieve a cellphone from her car which was 'just outside the door.' .... 'She ran back inside the same door she came out of in fear for her life. She must have panicked,' she said.

Uvalde hero teacher describes hiding with students during shooting

Fourth grade teacher Nicole Ogburn, 44, has described the terrifying moment she spotted gunman Salvador Ramos approaching Robb Elementary and ordered her students to take cover.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Not to mention the teacher the security officer thought was a shooter.

 

[PrairieWind]

"Unannounced, random intruders" at schools

Gov. Greg Abbott instructs school safety officials to conduct “unannounced, random intruder” audits of Texas public schools

Abbott has tasked the Texas School Safety Center with conducting in-person, unannounced audits of public schools to see how quickly staff can enter a building without being stopped and detect weak points.

www.texastribune.org

I think it is a good idea. But the union spokesman is misconstruing it.

 

[Dotta]

I think it is a good idea. But the union spokesman is misconstruing it.

Hmmm....

What if this "fake" intruder gets killed by an armed teacher??

 

[PrairieWind]

Hmmm....

What if this "fake" intruder gets killed by an armed teacher??

would a teacher normally shoot someone that is checking to see if doors are locked?

 

[Dotta]

A suspicious stranger checking the school doors???

 

[Wise Old Owl]

A crash bar or panic bar door can be locked and unlocked from inside. There is usually a small hole on the bar or the bar bracket. You put a hex tool and turn. This holds the bar down and allows people outside to enter freely. Turn the hex tool the other way and the bar will release. Then the door will latch when closed. This allows people inside to exit, but not allow entry from outside. So this door was apparently unlocked. The teacher maybe had propped it open with a rock, but actually didn't need too.
The fact that there was a rock right there by the door tells us that it was frequently propped open. The principal or custodian should see that and remove any such items. But, regardless, the teacher did pull the door shut when she heard the shooting. She clearly assumed it would latch, but the door was not in that configuration, it was still unlocked. Did the shooter know this? Or did he just get lucky? It could be that he had previously cased the school and saw that that particular door was frequently propped open.

Well, we do know that his grandmother had worked at the school previously. And, in my past experience, being a retired teacher, I have worked in schools where a particular outside door was commonly used to get out to cars (it was so much closer), and teachers weren't given keys to all doors (like they pretty much are now- because of this), there were rocks, or door stops, I even remember one with a folder we used to put inside the jam (around the lock), But all of those were YEARS ago - back in the 90's - since Columbine - I can't remember working any schools where doors were propped open at all. Maybe shooter knew of this "practice"? JMHO

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School​

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School

The grandmother of the gunman who killed 21 at a Texas elementary school last week worked at the school as a teacher’s aide, a close friend of the family told The Post.

nypost.com

JMHO

 

[Dotta]

Well, we do know that his grandmother had worked at the school previously. And, in my past experience, being a retired teacher, I have worked in schools where a particular outside door was commonly used to get out to cars (it was so much closer), and teachers weren't given keys to all doors (like they pretty much are now- because of this), there were rocks, or door stops, I even remember one with a folder we used to put inside the jam (around the lock), But all of those were YEARS ago - back in the 90's - since Columbine - I can't remember working any schools where doors were propped open at all. Maybe shooter knew of this "practice"? JMHO

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School​

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School

The grandmother of the gunman who killed 21 at a Texas elementary school last week worked at the school as a teacher’s aide, a close friend of the family told The Post.

nypost.com

JMHO

I think he knew everything about this school.

After all, he had been preparing for this "mission" for a long time.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Well, we do know that his grandmother had worked at the school previously. And, in my past experience, being a retired teacher, I have worked in schools where a particular outside door was commonly used to get out to cars (it was so much closer), and teachers weren't given keys to all doors (like they pretty much are now- because of this), there were rocks, or door stops, I even remember one with a folder we used to put inside the jam (around the lock), But all of those were YEARS ago - back in the 90's - since Columbine - I can't remember working any schools where doors were propped open at all. Maybe shooter knew of this "practice"? JMHO

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School​

Texas shooter’s grandmother was a teacher’s aide at Robb Elementary School

The grandmother of the gunman who killed 21 at a Texas elementary school last week worked at the school as a teacher’s aide, a close friend of the family told The Post.

nypost.com

JMHO

“The teenager had been sleeping on his grandparents’ couch two or three months before the shooting, Ramos’ grandfather previously told The Post. The husband said his 66-year-old wife had asked Ramos to start paying for his own cellphone bill just before the shooting happened.”

I was wondering where SR slept in that small house. Where did he hide the guns and ammo?

So both his grandparents were working and SR was too - who took him to work? And who drove him to buy the guns?
So many questions....

 

[lonetraveler]

BBM

Gutierrez said during a news conference, adding that no single person or entity was fully to blame for the massacre.


THERE IT IS!

I rest my case.


ETA - and this is coming from a Senator - an elected official.

Key word "fully" IMO.

 

[Seattle1]

yep yep and yep

BUT - "door can only be locked from the inside" - THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Panic/Fire doors - which is what this is (that's what they call them) - they have that "bar" on the inside of the door that all you have to do is push and the door opens - ALL those doors I have ever encountered - albeit schools, courthouses, stadiums, hotels, etc. - the "key hole" for that door is on the "opposite side" or egress side of the door - NEVER on the same side as the "bar". They are not to be locked on the inside (meaning the inside part of the door always has to be open - push the bar - in case of fire or other immediate evacuation) So the only way that door is locked is on the outside - you can lock someone OUT of that door BUT you can't lock someone INSIDE with that door -does that make sense?

That door had a key lock hole on the outside and someone had to have unlocked it for that door to be opened by the shooter from the outside. Or........................................they can always "find" that the door mechanism "failed" when the teacher shut it and "didn't properly engage". And , JMHO, that is where this whole "open door" narrative is going to go................................................................sad


JMHO

It's been decades since I've frequented an elementary school so my only comparison is my office, doors that are marked as an emergency exit, a big warning on the interior door that states for ER USE ONLY, and a warning that opening the door will result in setting off an alarm.

If I remember correctly, there's not even a door handle on the exterior side of the door, and no external key entry either. IMO, I trust this type of door, (intended mostly for fire escape purposes), was also designed to deter human failure where good intentions might result in an accidental breach of building security. In other words, the very doors I'm considering would really be convenient if we too could use a rock to prop open the door. JMO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

It's been decades since I've frequented an elementary school so my only comparison is my office, doors that are marked as an emergency exit, a big warning on the interior door that states for ER USE ONLY, and a warning that opening the door will result in setting off an alarm.

If I remember correctly, there's not even a door handle on the exterior side of the door, and no external key entry either. IMO, I trust this type of door, (intended mostly for fire escape purposes), was also designed to deter human failure where good intentions might result in an accidental breach of building security. In other words, the very doors I'm considering would really be convenient if we too could use a rock to prop open the door. JMO

Found this today: Notice it has a handle and it seems a key hole lock.

Uvalde hero teacher describes hiding with students during shooting

Fourth grade teacher Nicole Ogburn, 44, has described the terrifying moment she spotted gunman Salvador Ramos approaching Robb Elementary and ordered her students to take cover.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I've compared this photo with others and it seems to match - that this is the door. The reserved / handicapped parking sign matches.

So there was a handle and a lock. It seems

JMHO

 

[Friday Fan]

DBM

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Could gunman’s grandmother have had a key to that door to open from outside? If so, could he have stolen it/made a copy? Perhaps he went for that door because he knew he could get in through it even if it were locked? Moo

 

[Dotta]

Dbm

 

[Wise Old Owl]

This is new........................... and it comes from the mayor so

"Mayor Don McLaughlin of Uvalde said in an interview with CNN on Thursday that the gunman did not answer his telephone when a negotiator tried to phone him."

No Radio, Old Tactics: How the Police Response in Uvalde Broke Down (Published 2022)

The commander at the scene arrived without a police radio, and decided in the first minutes on an approach that would delay a confrontation.

www.nytimes.com

LE tried to call him on his phone? During all this? Guess they figured out who he was real quick and got his phone number!

That's a first in all these school shootings - LE tried to call and negotiate with the shooter...............(smh)



JMHO

 

[Friday Fan]

DBM

 

[Dawookie]

OMG!!
I read this earlier in the DM and NYPost and assumed it was tabloid and took it with a grain of salt.

From the NY Times article:

11:35 a.m. UCISD police chief arrives
Two minutes later, a lieutenant and a sergeant from the Uvalde Police Department approached the door, and were grazed by bullets.
Shortly after UCISD chief placed a phone call from the scene, reaching a police department land line. Requested a radio, a rifle and a contingent of heavily armed officers,

Also campus police at another district were critical of the fact that the Uvalde CISD PD did not carry keys to each classroom.

I spoke with former principal about this and he said campus police at his district had all of the classroom keys, but he stated that he did not know what the policy was in other districts

It has come out a few days afterwards that he possibly didn't have it but to see it confirmed makes me shake my head in amazement.