TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

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x_files

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Sorry, but I really don't understand him being in city Council.
Police work seems to be very demanding, and him preparing to elections might have meant, his concentration wasn't really into policing at this time.

He was busy campaigning and working basically two jobs. He couldn't do his day job correctly and wants to still keep both!
Sorry, he needs to be shown the door. Better yet RESIGN.
I would NEVER trust his judgment ever again. NEVER.
 

wary

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BBM

Gutierrez said during a news conference, adding that no single person or entity was fully to blame for the massacre.


THERE IT IS!

I rest my case.


ETA - and this is coming from a Senator - an elected official.

MOO

Um...one single person was totally to blame for the massacre. 100%

However, there are quite a number of people who have reason to feel some guilt, since they had a chance to stop that one person from doing as much damage as he did.

MOO
 

ilovewings

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I don't think it was because they were all afraid (some maybe) but the School's Chief of Police Pete Arredondo ordered them to STAND DOWN.
Which was a bad decision. He also did NOT have a Police Radio/scanner and I would love to know why? Why was he using a cellphone to conduct official police business sp an Active Shooter?
The real question is why did he make that decision so quickly and refuse to back down? Border Control disobeyed and went in regardless.

Lack of experience? Did his ego prevent him from listening to advice from UPD? Still a mystery.

The article says in part " the first officers arrived to the school parking lot just minutes after the shooter entered the school, and three officers followed behind Ramos, getting grazed by gunfire in the process. THEY DID NOT CONTINUE TO PURSUE HIM. BY noon, 19 officers were on site. Reasons given as to why it took another 50 minutes to kill the suspect have differed, depending on who has given the account. In interviews, Ulvalde's public safety department spokesman, Lt. Chris Olivarez suggested POLICE OFFICERS FEARED FOR THEIR OWN LIVES. "They are receiving gunshots, at that point, if they proceed any further, not knowing where the suspect was at, they could have been shot, they could have been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside the school, Olvarez told CNN situation room".

The article then asks WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR AN ACTIVE SHOOTER SITUATION?"

" The training materials encourage OFFICERS TO CONFRONT THE ATTACKER IN AN ACTIVE SHOOTER
SITUATION,DRIVING THEM AWAY FROM VICTIMS, isolating and distracting them, even WHEN IT MEANS PUTTING THEMSELVES IN HARM'S WAY. If they are engaged with the officer(s) they will be less
capable of hurting innocents".

The article states that the best hope victims have is if officers move immediately into action to isolate, distract or neutralize the threat, even if that means one officer acting alone. The manual makes it clear not doing this will cost lives.

I also have a question about why the police were not carrying military style weapons? they must know by know after so many mass shootings, that the shooter has that type of weapon-- it is poor preparation for an active shooter situation, if the police have guns while the shooter has a weapon of war.
 

Wise Old Owl

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Great read - a take on teachers trying to teach in this world...................

Teachers after Texas attack: ‘None of us are built for this’​


“You’re a first responder. You’re a first reporter. If there’s an issue in the home, you are sometimes the only chance a kid has at love, at getting food that day, at maybe getting a warm and safe place to be that day. The scope of the job is huge right now.”

The pandemic added the challenge of remote learning, classroom sanitizing and finding enough substitute teachers to keep schools running. "



In Florida, when I took the "Stop the Bleed" certification in 2019 - we were told that we have been given a title - a new title - IMMEDIATE responder. Yep, teachers are considered IMMEDIATE responders. The class was taught by firemen and EMT's! They are the true first responders - we are considered immediate because we are there when it happens - and they did their best at training us to "respond" to wounded victims - hence the name Stop the Bleed. There were a couple - only 2 or 3 - that actually left - couldn't finish. If I wanted to be an EMT - I would have taken that direction.....and not all people can do that work.

JMHO
 

Sundog

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Sorry, but I really don't understand him being in city Council.
Police work seems to be very demanding, and him preparing to elections might have meant, his concentration wasn't really into policing at this time.
In our state, state law allows for public employees to serve on city or township councils, trustee boards, etc. as usually city council positions are part time positions. State law in Ohio also stipulates that during an election cycle, the public employee should take a leave of absence during the campaign period until the election is over, if the campaigning interferes with the public employee's ability to get his/her job done.

There are also ethics laws, in Ohio we have the Ohio Ethics Commission, and there are rules about recusing yourself if you serve in two public positions where there is a conflict of interest, such as voting on a contract that is being considered and involves the two entities where the public employee works.

I looked into this when one of my colleagues recently ran for City Council and I wondered about it, but both the state Ethics Commission and the Ohio Code both allow for it. I didn't see her much during the campaign period before the election, but she may have taken a leave of absence. She did win the seat on City Council, and now she balances both public positions, with City Council work mainly at night.

So I think what the police chief was doing is considered legal and acceptable in many states around the country, and is quite common.
 
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Friday Fan

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City Council in Uvalde is probably like school board. I would not be surprised if it is also a volunteer position.

Texas was originally founded with having all elected officials as volunteers. Currently a state rep has a compensation of only $7,200/year. Almost every elected official in the Texas House and Senate have other full time jobs.
 

IceIce9

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Great read - a take on teachers trying to teach in this world...................

Teachers after Texas attack: ‘None of us are built for this’​


“You’re a first responder. You’re a first reporter. If there’s an issue in the home, you are sometimes the only chance a kid has at love, at getting food that day, at maybe getting a warm and safe place to be that day. The scope of the job is huge right now.”

The pandemic added the challenge of remote learning, classroom sanitizing and finding enough substitute teachers to keep schools running. "



In Florida, when I took the "Stop the Bleed" certification in 2019 - we were told that we have been given a title - a new title - IMMEDIATE responder. Yep, teachers are considered IMMEDIATE responders. The class was taught by firemen and EMT's! They are the true first responders - we are considered immediate because we are there when it happens - and they did their best at training us to "respond" to wounded victims - hence the name Stop the Bleed. There were a couple - only 2 or 3 - that actually left - couldn't finish. If I wanted to be an EMT - I would have taken that direction.....and not all people can do that work.

JMHO
I teach “Stop the Bleed” courses, as well as CPR, First Aid, Workplace Violence/Active Shooter, and others.

“Stop the Bleed” courses are designed for non-medical people. We teach these classes not just to teachers but to warehouse workers, restaurant employees, office employees, retail employees, community and neighborhood associations, service clubs, church groups, and just about any other business or organization.

Just as non-medical people are encouraged to learn CPR, learning how to stop bleeding can save lives in the minutes before EMTs or Medics arrive.
 

Wise Old Owl

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I teach “Stop the Bleed” courses, as well as CPR, First Aid, Workplace Violence/Active Shooter, and others.

“Stop the Bleed” courses are designed for non-medical people. We teach these classes not just to teachers but to warehouse workers, restaurant employees, office employees, retail employees, community and neighborhood associations, service clubs, church groups, and just about any other business or organization.

Just as non-medical people are encouraged to learn CPR, learning how to stop bleeding can save lives in the minutes before EMTs or Medics arrive.
Thank you for all you do! I did all right with the class - it was on the way home that got to me. I actually had to pull over as I was gagging and afraid I was going to throw up. It passed quickly and I made it home ok.

You can attest to this - I found out with myself, when we had that shooting at school - I was the first one to call the code and I handled things - got the kids & other teacher back in my room - kept them all calm until it was over. I did ok. It was on the way home that I broke down - when I got home my husband came out and carried me into the house. I broke down. You learn a lot about yourself when faced with those situations - I learned that in the moment I will handle it - but after its over - watch out because I'm going to be a mess! I couldn't do what you do every day! Thank you for being there.
 

Seattle1

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Found this today: Notice it has a handle and it seems a key hole lock.

View attachment 347738




I've compared this photo with others and it seems to match - that this is the door. The reserved / handicapped parking sign matches.

So there was a handle and a lock. It seems

JMHO
Thanks, @Wise Old Owl for the photo. It clearly shows a door that appears to be accessible (when locked) with a key from the exterior.

Also, from the DM link and interview of NO, it seems that SR first tried another door for entry before finding the west, unlocked entrance:

From that entry point, her classroom would have been one of the first Ramos encountered from the outside, almost directly in the line of fire, the teacher explained.

Meanwhile, inside, the students still sitting on the floor watching a movie, were unaware of what was about to transpire, until they suddenly heard what Ogburn described sounded like a shovel hitting the building.

In hindsight, she believes the noise could have been the shooter trying to unsuccessfully force his way into the building through the south side entrance.
 

Seattle1

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This MSM article only gives one side of the story about her being threatened by LE for sharing her story. If they weren't able to get a statement from LE about her accusations, then they should have reported that LE had no comment, or their point of view on the situation. Otherwise, it's just a one-sided account.
I agree about this story only giving only the mother's account but I'm not certain her timeline here is necessarily correct. For example, I've seen other cell phone videos that include mom in the background and her altercation with LE, where the video timestamp indicates that she would not have encountered gunfire but instead a rescue operation underway with children being lifted out of their classroom windows.

In my experience, children of this age tend to do better than adults because they are trusting and willing to follow the instructions consistent with what they've been practicing since pre-K. Every one of the survivors that have spoken publicly reported how they went into "lockdown mode" as their teachers also followed the plan as practiced. The children also knew that their parents were at a safe location waiting for them -- since reunification was also previously practiced and/or explained.

We know that the mother's children were not in danger -- they were nowhere part of 4th- grade or their classrooms. Looking at this situation from a child's perspective, I can't imagine the effect this could have when suddenly, a parent interrupts their train of thought after barging into the class to collect only her own kids, and run out the door! :eek:

Just how many of the kid's minds went into shock, wondering why the change in plan, looking over their shoulders for their own parents to enter at any time to rescue them. And how many suddenly hesitated to leave out the window? As a mother, how could you look your children's classmates in the eye, leaving them behind, after the disruption you caused. If I found myself in the mother's situation, I'd like to think I stayed behind and helped with the evacuation, just as the children had practiced, hoping to be a calming, reassuring source to them. MOO
 
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Dotta

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"Mariachis ride into Uvalde with songs of heartache and hope"

Oh
"Tu eres la tristeza de mis ojos
Que lloran en silencio..."




" Dame LA Fuerza para Vivir, Dios Mio!"

God, give me strength to carry on living!
 
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Dotta

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tayaway

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"The lack of direct and clear communication complicated the response to the mass shooting that left 19 fourth-graders and two teachers dead, said a U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation".


DPS, which has responsibility for investigating the shooting, said last week that school police Chief Pete Arredondo, who was in command, mistakenly thought the situation had shifted from that of an active shooter, to a barricaded hostage taker. The decision led law enforcement on the scene to wait more than an hour to go into a set of connected classrooms where the gunman was barricaded.

Officers on the outside couldn't hear the shots being fired? Ok, so if there was no coms between the chief and the LE inside, surely the 9/11 operators were relaying the children's desperate calls for police assistance b/c the shooter was killing them? Or maybe the chief wasn't onsite, but then again, wouldn't they have an incident command person onsite in charge, who could clearly hear the shots ring out?
 

sds71

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Briseno said he wants the families to have closure and hopes that sharing what he witnessed will also help investigators.

One of Briseno's main duties at the funeral home is digging graves. He said he's helped bury five children who died that day, including a cousin, Amerie Jo Garza, whose service was Tuesday.

"Had to dig the grave, set up the tent, lower her casket," Briseno said.

Asked what the most difficult aspect of coping with the events of that day has been, Briseno said doing his job — burying the children — knowing that maybe he could have intervened.

"It always plays in my head," he said, when "I loaded those caskets down."

 

KMouse

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The article says in part " the first officers arrived to the school parking lot just minutes after the shooter entered the school, and three officers followed behind Ramos, getting grazed by gunfire in the process. THEY DID NOT CONTINUE TO PURSUE HIM. BY noon, 19 officers were on site. Reasons given as to why it took another 50 minutes to kill the suspect have differed, depending on who has given the account. In interviews, Ulvalde's public safety department spokesman, Lt. Chris Olivarez suggested POLICE OFFICERS FEARED FOR THEIR OWN LIVES. "They are receiving gunshots, at that point, if they proceed any further, not knowing where the suspect was at, they could have been shot, they could have been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside the school, Olvarez told CNN situation room".

The article then asks WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES FOR AN ACTIVE SHOOTER SITUATION?"

" The training materials encourage OFFICERS TO CONFRONT THE ATTACKER IN AN ACTIVE SHOOTER
SITUATION,DRIVING THEM AWAY FROM VICTIMS, isolating and distracting them, even WHEN IT MEANS PUTTING THEMSELVES IN HARM'S WAY. If they are engaged with the officer(s) they will be less
capable of hurting innocents".

The article states that the best hope victims have is if officers move immediately into action to isolate, distract or neutralize the threat, even if that means one officer acting alone. The manual makes it clear not doing this will cost lives.

I also have a question about why the police were not carrying military style weapons? they must know by know after so many mass shootings, that the shooter has that type of weapon-- it is poor preparation for an active shooter situation, if the police have guns while the shooter has a weapon of war.

Does the police department have the proper equipment, i.e. hard body armour, assault rifles? If so, where was the equipment? How many officers are on duty during a weekday day shift? How many were working that day? How do they call for backup? Do they have a SWAT team? What's the procedure for calling them out and the response time? Were different police agencies involved? Are they able to communicate on one radio channel? How does dispatch manage a mass casualty event? How many people were working in dispatch that day? Who was in charge of this incident? Where were they?
 

Arkay

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Briseno said he wants the families to have closure and hopes that sharing what he witnessed will also help investigators.

One of Briseno's main duties at the funeral home is digging graves. He said he's helped bury five children who died that day, including a cousin, Amerie Jo Garza, whose service was Tuesday.

"Had to dig the grave, set up the tent, lower her casket," Briseno said.

Asked what the most difficult aspect of coping with the events of that day has been, Briseno said doing his job — burying the children — knowing that maybe he could have intervened.

"It always plays in my head," he said, when "I loaded those caskets down."

Wow, this poor guy. He was one of the first, if not the very first, to confront SR and is carrying so much grief as well as guilt.

He was very brave to want to help, but honestly I don't know if he should've called his wife to bring his gun. Just to allow her anywhere near that scene, God forbid if she'd gotten hurt. Though I do understand 100% that his intention was to help stop SR.

Jmo
 

KMouse

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DPS, which has responsibility for investigating the shooting, said last week that school police Chief Pete Arredondo, who was in command, mistakenly thought the situation had shifted from that of an active shooter, to a barricaded hostage taker. The decision led law enforcement on the scene to wait more than an hour to go into a set of connected classrooms where the gunman was barricaded.

Officers on the outside couldn't hear the shots being fired? Ok, so if there was no coms between the chief and the LE inside, surely the 9/11 operators were relaying the children's desperate calls for police assistance b/c the shooter was killing them? Or maybe the chief wasn't onsite, but then again, wouldn't they have an incident command person onsite in charge, who could clearly hear the shots ring out?

A 20 year old radio system with known deficiencies such as dead spots in buildings? You can have all the police you want but if nobody can communicate properly that's a big problem.
 

ilovewings

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Does the police department have the proper equipment, i.e. hard body armour, assault rifles? If so, where was the equipment? How many officers are on duty during a weekday day shift? How many were working that day? How do they call for backup? Do they have a SWAT team? What's the procedure for calling them out and the response time? Were different police agencies involved? Are they able to communicate on one radio channel? How does dispatch manage a mass casualty event? How many people were working in dispatch that day? Who was in charge of this incident? Where were they?
All good questions-- Hopefully we will learn the answers soon!
 

KMouse

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The accident would indicate that his grandmother/grandfather owned the truck. Probably neighbors showed up and were talking about him.

They may have contacted Wendy's where he had worked.

Quick background checks can provide phone numbers, BUT they are not always accurate.

He was young, so any phone number issued to him would have been recent AND if the phone was in his grandparents/parents name (which it is 95% of the time) that means calling all of them.

However, this seems to be a crazy way of dealing with a school shooter. This isn't a movie.. He certainly isn't gonna pick up the phone!

If they had negotiators they may have been the ones to try and call. I doubt it though. This incident appears to be been a clown show with nobody in charge and terrible communication.
 
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