UID Victim: Fire Island Jane Doe - UP9098

bessie

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Fire Island Jane Doe
Namus UP #9098


20 April 1996


"The decedents left and right legs were recovered on April 20, 1996 at Blue Point Beach in the vicinity of Davis Park, Suffolk County NY." (CBS New York)

People walking along Blue Point Beach on Fire Island in the vicinity of Davis Park discovered the victim's legs on April 20, 1996.
The legs had been wrapped in plastic.

She is known as Fire Island Jane Doe and is one of eleven victims found along the remote Long Island highway. (Doe Network)

11/12 April 2011

"The decedents skull was recovered on April 12, 2011 off of Ocean Pkwy in Nassau County, NY, near a bird sanctuary." (CBS New York)

April 12, 2011, the victim's skull was found off of Ocean Parkway west of Tobay Beach in Nassau County. (Doe Network)

Adult White Female, pre-50
Post mortem interval - 15 years
Probable year of death - 1996

  • Right lower leg has a 3-1/2" scar on the lateral mid leg area, a 1" linear scar on the lateral mid to lower leg and a 1/2" scar on the medial ankle.
  • The left leg has a 2" surgical scar with adjacent suture scars on the medial left ankle.
  • The decedent had red toenail polish on all toes.
  • The decedent may have had surgery on her left ankle.

Namus UP #9098

Doe Network 1019UFNY

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Dwntwnslim

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Please place all future posts regarding Jane Doe 9098 in this thread. Thanks!
 

Dwntwnslim

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Hi everyone!

I have not heard from Nursebeemee yet regarding Jane Doe 9098's scars. But, I have heard from RabidBadger who is also a WS vetted RN. Here is what RabidBadger has to say regarding Jane Doe 9098's scars.

Please Note: This is RabidBadger's Preliminary Analysis:

"Hi, I got your message and I am looking at the info now. I'm not familiar with the case at all so I'll have to spend some time looking at it and the injuries.

But right off the hop, my instinct is no, it's not a fasciotomy scar. I work with patients who have fasciotomies and escharotomies extensively and have assisted with these procedures. Fasciotomies tend to be long scars, a small one would be virtually pointless.

I'll have more opinion when I have a better understanding of the case."
 

Mountain_Kat

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Hi everyone!

I have not heard from Nursebeemee yet regarding Jane Doe 9098's scars. But, I have heard from RabidBadger who is also a WS vetted RN. Here is what RabidBadger has to say regarding Jane Doe 9098's scars.

Please Note: This is RabidBadger's Preliminary Analysis:

"Hi, I got your message and I am looking at the info now. I'm not familiar with the case at all so I'll have to spend some time looking at it and the injuries.

But right off the hop, my instinct is no, it's not a fasciotomy scar. I work with patients who have fasciotomies and escharotomies extensively and have assisted with these procedures. Fasciotomies tend to be long scars, a small one would be virtually pointless.

I'll have more opinion when I have a better understanding of the case."

Ask Rabid if an "L" shaped scar means anything to her medically.
 

meltruth

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Her scars also can be consistent with skeletal leg lengthen. It also can be to correct a problem with bones that grow in an abnormal way. Scars on both calfs and ankles would point to this. This could be another option what the scars were from.
 

RabidBadger

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Hi gang,

I am a trauma/burn/neurosurgery/general surgery critical care nurse. I see all sorts of trauma wounds, burn related wounds, plastics, orthopedics and vascular wounds. I am not overly familiar with cosmetic procedure scarring or less serious surgical scars.

My thoughts:

First of all, the description of these scars have been inconsistent, describing both ankles as surgical scars, then the left ankle only, no mention of the L scar on the namus profile, both legs having calf scars and then the right only, etc.

Secondly, I do not (obviously) have access to the autopsy report or photos of the scars, so it would be virtually impossible for me to say with any degree of certainty what the scars are from.

Thirdly, I have no idea if the info we have been given is complete or incomplete. There is no mention of abnormalities on xrays, no mention of non linear scars, track marks etc. Therefore these are either a) non-existent or b) being deliberately withheld, although I don't see how withholding info about possible remote injuries would assist in identifying her.

With that said, these are the things I can say:

1) These have only been described as scars. Scars indicate the injury or surgical site has HEALED, and therefore precede the the incident that caused her death. Likely by a month or so at minimum.

2) I strongly feel these are not fasciotomy scars due to the short length of them. The only one that could potentially be one by location alone is the 3.5 inch scar on the inner side of the L calf muscle. However, it is much too short.

3) These are unlikely to be trauma related. When I say trauma related I mean major trauma, such as an MVA. There is no indication of healed breaks on xray. There is no indication of hardware found on xray. Therefore these scars are likely unrelated to a fracture.

4) the medial ankle scars could be related to surgery for an entrapped nerve or damaged tendons, ligaments. Couldn't say for sure without seeing them.

5) The calf scars annoy me, because the right one is described as posterior, then later described as lateral. So if they are surgical wounds I can't say what they are. If they were both posterior but mid calf I'd say potentially a calf reduction surgery. Laterally? I don't know. Unlikely to be major vascular surgery related, because I have yet to meet a vascular surgeon who doesn't perform without at least an 18" incision. I suppose venous congestion or varicose vein surgery is possible.

6) The L shaped scar on the shin has me stumped. L shaped surgical wounds could be a flap procedure, but from the shin, rather unlikely. It's not a thigh plasty because it's on the shin. It could be a graft donor site but those tend to be rectangular, and surgeons tend to prefer the thigh for donor sites. The L shape could also be consistent with a healed skin tear. I'd really have to see this scar to really make any educated guesses.

7) all of these scars, surgical or otherwise, could be related to lacerations obtained by whatever means instead of a planned surgical procedure. They could have been self injury marks, burn marks, "minor" trauma (ie: not involving a fracture), the result of being hit with some sort of shrapnel or debris like glass. The could also be excisions or surgical drainage of an abscess. Surgical drainage of an abscess is possible I guess if the woman were injecting caustic substances. However, there's no indication of any track marks or damage to the thighs, which would be the first place someone self injecting would go for on the legs. I lean against shrapnel or debris lacerations as well for the same reason, no damage or scarring on the thighs. Without indication on the shape of the scars, I couldn't rule out venous ulcers either.

My sense, based on scarce information, is we are looking for either:

1) a runner/jogger who has required surgery for running related tendon etc injuries, possible other athletic interests

2) a woman who wears high heels a lot, causing potential damage to tendons, nerves etc

3) any other of the 3-4 billion other possible females.

4) If I had more info about the painted toes it might give us more clues as to who we are looking for. Are they done by amateur or is it a professional manicure with cuticle care?

I'd be interested to see what some other medical professional has to say, if they have other ideas. But without further descriptors of the quality, direction, shape and location of the scars, I'm not sure anyone could say with certainty. I'm actually surprised the ME wasn't able to determine some possibilities. That leaves me scratching my head.
 

RabidBadger

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Her scars also can be consistent with skeletal leg lengthen. It also can be to correct a problem with bones that grow in an abnormal way. Scars on both calfs and ankles would point to this. This could be another option what the scars were from.

But not without xray indicators of any sort of orthopedic procedure. Which is why I lean toward soft tissue injury/surgery.
 

WINDSOR

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Jane Doe 9098

We have a woman who died in 1996, with scars on here legs that pre-dated her demise.

Her death was the result of foul play.

She was somebody's daughter/spouse/friend/co-worker. One of these people even for a very short time was aware of of her disappearance, ie "I have not seen Jane, does she still hang out here?"

Probability is; she might have been involved in life outside the main-stream.

If she was part of the main-stream there would have been missing persons reports, police awareness, and so on. (Has LE checked this out thoroughly?)

If she had scars on her legs, she likely wore pants/slacks or opaque stockings in public. Her family/spouse/friends/co-workers likely knew about these scars.

By the fact she had nail polish on her toes she cared about how she looked, Jane had the ability to take care of herself (not a homeless street person)

If she was in the sex trade, she might have accumulated some money (bank accounts-safety deposit box) or was supporting a child or parent directly or indirectly, and the money stopped coming in.

Possibly there were several people who knew her.

somebody she was supporting
her clients and or pimp
family/spouse/friend/co-workers
medical practitioner, OBS-GYN
maybe a dentist


So at least four people knew of Jane's existence, which ceased in 1996
Likely three or four of these people were aware of her scars.

Unfortunately some of these people may be deceased or unavailable 16 years later.

I would also speculate that she lived in the NYC area.

Where does one start the search? I have not figured that out yet.
 

meltruth

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In the April 25,1996 news article in Long island Advance of the legs being found it states that both legs show healed surgical scars at the ankles. In addition according to police, the right leg has a 3 /12 inch scar in the posterior calf muscle and an L shape on the shin. The left leg has a similar 3 1/2 inch scar on the inner side of the calf muscle.
 

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RabidBadger

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In the April 25,1996 news article in Long island Advance of the legs being found it states that both legs show healed surgical scars at the ankles. In addition according to police, the right leg has a 3 /12 inch scar in the posterior calf muscle and an L shape on the shin. The left leg has a similar 3 1/2 inch scar on the inner side of the calf muscle.

Yes, which is why I said the reports are inconsistent. I can't rely on this article alone because it was written by a reporter who may have been given incorrect info at the infancy stage of the investigation. Namus and others are not consistent with this, so the autopsy report is really what is needed.
 

Dwntwnslim

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@RabidBadger-

Thanks for lending us your expertise! I don't know about anybody else but, I didn't go to nursing school or medical school so I couldn't make heads or tails out of the scar information.

I just want to make sure you know that the time and effort you put into helping us out is greatly appreciated!
 

truthspider

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7) all of these scars, surgical or otherwise, could be related to lacerations obtained by whatever means instead of a planned surgical procedure. ....

...However, there's no indication of any track marks or damage to the thighs, which would be the first place someone self injecting would go for on the legs.

I'd be interested to see what some other medical professional has to say, if they have other ideas. But without further descriptors of the quality, direction, shape and location of the scars, I'm not sure anyone could say with certainty. I'm actually surprised the ME wasn't able to determine some possibilities. That leaves me scratching my head.

Thanks so much rabidbadger, its great to finally hear a professional opinion on this, we have needed an attempt at a diagnosis badly. Doesn't the word "suture" more or less gaurantee that the woman did have an actual operation/stitches/treatment?

Could it be stitches and scars from a minor injury that might occur at a beach community, possibly she injured herself waterskiing, jet skiing drunk, etc... An injury that could have been treated locally? Stitches performed by an emergency room physician in his in home facility perhaps? In the beach community I am from, there are no cars so you can get raced off the island by the police and driven to a hospital or get treated in the community by the local doc. We have many instances where our local doctor operating out of a beach house simply stitches you up, with follow up treatment when you can get off the island.

your avatar is rad.
 

Mountain_Kat

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Hi gang,

I am a trauma/burn/neurosurgery/general surgery critical care nurse. I see all sorts of trauma wounds, burn related wounds, plastics, orthopedics and vascular wounds. I am not overly familiar with cosmetic procedure scarring or less serious surgical scars.

My thoughts:

First of all, the description of these scars have been inconsistent, describing both ankles as surgical scars, then the left ankle only, no mention of the L scar on the namus profile, both legs having calf scars and then the right only, etc.

Secondly, I do not (obviously) have access to the autopsy report or photos of the scars, so it would be virtually impossible for me to say with any degree of certainty what the scars are from.

Thirdly, I have no idea if the info we have been given is complete or incomplete. There is no mention of abnormalities on xrays, no mention of non linear scars, track marks etc. Therefore these are either a) non-existent or b) being deliberately withheld, although I don't see how withholding info about possible remote injuries would assist in identifying her.

With that said, these are the things I can say:

1) These have only been described as scars. Scars indicate the injury or surgical site has HEALED, and therefore precede the the incident that caused her death. Likely by a month or so at minimum.

2) I strongly feel these are not fasciotomy scars due to the short length of them. The only one that could potentially be one by location alone is the 3.5 inch scar on the inner side of the L calf muscle. However, it is much too short.

3) These are unlikely to be trauma related. When I say trauma related I mean major trauma, such as an MVA. There is no indication of healed breaks on xray. There is no indication of hardware found on xray. Therefore these scars are likely unrelated to a fracture.

4) the medial ankle scars could be related to surgery for an entrapped nerve or damaged tendons, ligaments. Couldn't say for sure without seeing them.

5) The calf scars annoy me, because the right one is described as posterior, then later described as lateral. So if they are surgical wounds I can't say what they are. If they were both posterior but mid calf I'd say potentially a calf reduction surgery. Laterally? I don't know. Unlikely to be major vascular surgery related, because I have yet to meet a vascular surgeon who doesn't perform without at least an 18" incision. I suppose venous congestion or varicose vein surgery is possible.

6) The L shaped scar on the shin has me stumped. L shaped surgical wounds could be a flap procedure, but from the shin, rather unlikely. It's not a thigh plasty because it's on the shin. It could be a graft donor site but those tend to be rectangular, and surgeons tend to prefer the thigh for donor sites. The L shape could also be consistent with a healed skin tear. I'd really have to see this scar to really make any educated guesses.

7) all of these scars, surgical or otherwise, could be related to lacerations obtained by whatever means instead of a planned surgical procedure. They could have been self injury marks, burn marks, "minor" trauma (ie: not involving a fracture), the result of being hit with some sort of shrapnel or debris like glass. The could also be excisions or surgical drainage of an abscess. Surgical drainage of an abscess is possible I guess if the woman were injecting caustic substances. However, there's no indication of any track marks or damage to the thighs, which would be the first place someone self injecting would go for on the legs. I lean against shrapnel or debris lacerations as well for the same reason, no damage or scarring on the thighs. Without indication on the shape of the scars, I couldn't rule out venous ulcers either.

My sense, based on scarce information, is we are looking for either:

1) a runner/jogger who has required surgery for running related tendon etc injuries, possible other athletic interests

2) a woman who wears high heels a lot, causing potential damage to tendons, nerves etc

3) any other of the 3-4 billion other possible females.

4) If I had more info about the painted toes it might give us more clues as to who we are looking for. Are they done by amateur or is it a professional manicure with cuticle care?

I'd be interested to see what some other medical professional has to say, if they have other ideas. But without further descriptors of the quality, direction, shape and location of the scars, I'm not sure anyone could say with certainty. I'm actually surprised the ME wasn't able to determine some possibilities. That leaves me scratching my head.

BBM

That was my very first thought as well, Badger..."Oh, she was a jogger!" Of course, we can't know that for certain, but that's what my gut says.

Anyway, truly a fantastic post. Thank you so much for the wealth of information you provided. You've given me alot of jumping off points for further research.
 

Dwntwnslim

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Does anyone know if LE has come on the record stating that Jane Doe 9098 is the perp's first victim?
If anyone has any links to a MSM article that states this, please post a link. I'm unable to find anything about it.

Thanks!
 

Dwntwnslim

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I just heard from cats5vegas, another WS vetted RN about Jane Doe 9098. Here is what cats5vegas had to say:


"Hello! My nursing background is mostly hospice and auditing. But I am a bit familiar with the fasciotomy procedure.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciotomy"]Fasciotomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
I attached a wiki link. A facsiotomy is indicated with a limb has so much swelling that it is too much to be contained within the skin. The doctor makes an incision into the fascia (layer of fibrous tissue that surrounds an area inside the body) in order to relieve the pressure and allow the area to swell without damaging nearby tissue. There is a picture in the wiki link. Although there are medical conditions which could cause a limb to swell so much, I think it is more common after an injury. (I have even audited charts where young adult men took Viagra to party, had the issue of erection lasting > 4 hours, had extensive penile swelling and required a penile fasciotomy. They won't be partying again for a while!)

I haven't had a chance to look at the links you provided, but I'll see if I have anything to input.

Regards"
 

Clem Snide

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I just heard from cats5vegas, another WS vetted RN about Jane Doe 9098. Here is what cats5vegas had to say:


"Hello! My nursing background is mostly hospice and auditing. But I am a bit familiar with the fasciotomy procedure.
Fasciotomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I attached a wiki link. A facsiotomy is indicated with a limb has so much swelling that it is too much to be contained within the skin. The doctor makes an incision into the fascia (layer of fibrous tissue that surrounds an area inside the body) in order to relieve the pressure and allow the area to swell without damaging nearby tissue. There is a picture in the wiki link. Although there are medical conditions which could cause a limb to swell so much, I think it is more common after an injury. (I have even audited charts where young adult men took Viagra to party, had the issue of erection lasting > 4 hours, had extensive penile swelling and required a penile fasciotomy. They won't be partying again for a while!)

I haven't had a chance to look at the links you provided, but I'll see if I have anything to input.

Regards"

Go figure. You'd think a 4+ hour erection would be a good thing.
 
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