UK - Alistair Wilson, 30, murdered at home, Nairn, Scotland, 28 Nov 2004

dotr

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Thanks from link.. rbbm.
''The person of interest for officers is now described as aged between 20-40 years at the time of the murder.
The man is described as 5ft 7ins and will now be aged between his mid 30s to 60s.

Police have also now revealed he was wearing a baseball cap and jacket at the time.


Previous descriptions had said the man who shot Mr Wilson could have been a full decade older.

The new description has been issued following a review of information by the murder squad investigating the death of Alistair Wilson.''
 
D

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Must admit I struggle with the envelope bit of the story. If AW had gone to the door and the caller had simply handed him the envelope and run off it might make sense. However it’s said they had a conversation for a few minutes before AW came back in with the envelope. He then expresses bewilderment about it to his wife before going back to see if the caller is still there. None of that makes any sense to me. Assuming the envelope ever existed AW surely knew what he was supposed to do with it. That the caller was still waiting around outside surely means AW was supposed to come back out again and that AW did not on the off chance go back to see if he was still there. Why did the killer hand the envelope over if he wasn’t confident he was going to get it back again? What other reason was there for the caller to hang around?

To me the only way I can understand why AW wasn’t shot the first time he answered the door would be because the killer needed something from AW first. Something put in that envelope. I doubt it was money (how can you ever know anyone has ready cash available?) but more likely a document or small item. Something he needed or was incriminating. So AW puts something in that envelope, hands it back and is then shot. All this of course assumes there ever was an envelope.

Maybe Alistair wasn't handed an empty envelope at all and after the chat ( telling AW what he was there for) Alastair went in to get the item and himself put it in the envelope, writing pauls name on the front himself?

Perhaps when his wife saw him with the envelope he was a little economical with the truth, either to protect her or because he simply didn't what her to know what it was about?
 
D

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I'd be interested to see if anyone can make a plausible theory fit the official version of events. I can't. I can find reasons for each individual bit but nothing that works as a whole without leaving gaping holes in it. I could argue the reason the AW took the envelope was because it was forced on him and he was threatened. But that's immediately contradicted by VW saying he was bewildered and not panicked and he then decided to go back outside. Similar applies to most other parts of the story. Given how reluctant the police have been to release information might they have also altered or deliberately issued a version of events they know not to be accurate?

The only theory that makes any sense to me is that after Alastair had ascertained who the caller was and what he wanted, it was he that went back inside to get the envelope with Paul's name on it (and whatever else was written on it that has been withheld) and handed it over to the killer. He faked bewilderment when his wife saw him with the envelope because he didn't want her to know what it was about telling her instead it was empty and had somone else's name written on it.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can make a plausible theory fit the official version of events. I can't. I can find reasons for each individual bit but nothing that works as a whole without leaving gaping holes in it. I could argue the reason the AW took the envelope was because it was forced on him and he was threatened. But that's immediately contradicted by VW saying he was bewildered and not panicked and he then decided to go back outside. Similar applies to most other parts of the story. Given how reluctant the police have been to release information might they have also altered or deliberately issued a version of events they know not to be accurate?
 
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D

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I think the envelope has much more significance than we know. The police had kept quiet about it for a long time and still have refused to elaborate on it. Added to that they won’t comment on the conversation between VW and AW. And why release that information now? You have to think there’s some very specific information they have that they don’t want in the public domain. I doubt it’s the envelope itself. After all it appears the killer wasn’t bothered about getting it back. More likely it’s very existence is the important bit and what that means and may represent together with the word “Paul”. All that of course assuming there ever was an envelope. To me it seems the police want the envelopes existence known for a purpose. They want someone to know they are aware of it.

Similarly AW being bewildered is something we assumed that happened. It cannot be substantiated. Nor for that matter can it be substantiated that AW did go back in and come back out again.

In terms of why took AW the envelope. Again I wonder if the caller was a hired third party or directly part of what was going on. Did he hand it over saying “so and so told me to give you this” believing AW would know what that meant. Perhaps AW did recognise a name or something in the conversation he had but didn’t understand the bigger picture. So he took the envelope on that basis but would still be bewildered overall. If someone gave you something telling you someone you knew had asked them to give it you, you might take it without understanding why it had been sent to you.

There’s still a big problem understanding what the killer hung around and why he shot AW. What happened in those few moments that led to such violence? Everything points to him hanging around because he expected AW to return. Problem is everything else suggests that wasn’t likely.

It makes very little sense that the police want someone to know they are aware of the envelope, because the killer himself would be aware of the envelope as he went back inside either holding it or to get it. The police have repeatedly said that they don't know what happened, So the presumption that people think they know more than they are letting on doesn't fit.

You also need to remember it didn't just have Paul written on it. There was something else written on it the police are withholding that is likely only information the killer knew.

If you put this with the theory he AW wrote on the envelope, it makes more sense.
 
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D

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I think the envelope has much more significance than we know. The police had kept quiet about it for a long time and still have refused to elaborate on it. Added to that they won’t comment on the conversation between VW and AW. And why release that information now? You have to think there’s some very specific information they have that they don’t want in the public domain. I doubt it’s the envelope itself. After all it appears the killer wasn’t bothered about getting it back. More likely it’s very existence is the important bit and what that means and may represent together with the word “Paul”. All that of course assuming there ever was an envelope. To me it seems the police want the envelopes existence known for a purpose. They want someone to know they are aware of it.

Similarly AW being bewildered is something we assumed that happened. It cannot be substantiated. Nor for that matter can it be substantiated that AW did go back in and come back out again.

In terms of why took AW the envelope. Again I wonder if the caller was a hired third party or directly part of what was going on. Did he hand it over saying “so and so told me to give you this” believing AW would know what that meant. Perhaps AW did recognise a name or something in the conversation he had but didn’t understand the bigger picture. So he took the envelope on that basis but would still be bewildered overall. If someone gave you something telling you someone you knew had asked them to give it you, you might take it without understanding why it had been sent to you.

There’s still a big problem understanding what the killer hung around and why he shot AW. What happened in those few moments that led to such violence? Everything points to him hanging around because he expected AW to return. Problem is everything else suggests that wasn’t likely.

The police very often say they won't comment, when they don't know!

The envelope is clearly very important because they're withholding what else was written on it. They are doing that because that is information only the killer would know if either he handed it to Alistair, or he had received it from Alastair. Only VW, Alistair and the killer would know what else was written on it. They could also be Withholding it to keep her safe. ( safe because its crucual )

It is also a possibility that if she says she has no idea what it was about, has no idea what was in it as it was empty, and claims he was bewildered she remains safe.

I wouldn't concentrate too deeply on what the police tell the public because many times It's not for the reasons you think.
 
D

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I agree that the marine apartments was a possibility where the car was parked up. The reason I'm not ruling out the links car park is due to the fact it is literally pitch dark and nobody at that time of year would have been using it. Even had he came out of the links car park and turned right he would not have been seen from Alistairs House as the havelock Hotel and the braeval Hotel would have been blocking his view. He wouldn't have necessarily pulled out of the car park turned right past Crescent Road, instead he would have joined marine road straight away with crescent road just of to his left where he could turn into , but clearly he would have by passed that.
The only reason I'm skeptical about the marine apartments is due to the fact he could have risked been seen running on the pavement heading towards the car park there, it's also very well lit up (the car park) and he could have been seen by residents who were staying there. But again I'm not rulling it out.
For me you can look at both sides of the coin, would you be more suspicious witnessing someone pulling up infront of you in a car where the drain is located? , and spending a bit of time there - in hope that nobody see's you dumping the gun? . Or do you spend a little bit more time quickly putting your bikers helmet on in a pitch dark carpark where there is nobody about then drive to the drain and discretely dump the gun- and avoid any unnecessary attention to yourself or risk been seen by another driver/ pedestrian acting suspiciously?
If he did use a car then I can only assume due to the fact that the gun was found on the passengers side of the car, that he must have had an accomplice driver with him.

The gun could have been put down that drain purposely by an acomplice so it was found, especially as that was the only drain in the area that was constantly flooding and the locals had been asking for it to be fixed. Planting it there would give the illusion that the killer went that way after and possibly to Inverness, when perhaps he did get into a parked car on the links car park and then straight onto the a 96 at the roundabout there, to Elgin.
 
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D

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The difficulty I have with that location is that the killer must head back toward the scene of the crime: it goes against any instinct to get as far away as quickly as possible? Would walking left from there to the Apartments be that much more risky at that time of night?

That drain is away from the scene of the crime and right where the road meets the A96. He could get straight onto that road and head to Inverness tirning tight there. He would only be heading back to the crime scene had he turned left on the A96.
 
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Coach

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Could the killer have been sent to collect money from AW? Could the envelope have had the name Paul on it because the person who delivered it handed an empty envelope for AW to put money in it for Paul. Is it possible that he decided not to put the money in it and then when he returned to the door with the envelope still empty, he was fatally shot.
 
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Could the killer have been sent to collect money from AW? Could the envelope have had the name Paul on it because the person who delivered it handed an empty envelope for AW to put money in it for Paul. Is it possible that he decided not to put the money in it and then when he returned to the door with the envelope still empty, he was fatally shot.

I very much doubt it as the official information is that he did not know the caller, he was not always meant to return to the door and only did because he was so bemused he wanted to see if he was still there. If he was meant to deposit anything in that envelope he'd be aware of what it was he was meant to put in it.

He'd also of know prior to that night as he would not be expected to have a large amount of money in the house on the off chance.
 

davidt

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I very much doubt it as the official information is that he did not know the caller, he was not always meant to return to the door and only did because he was so bemused he wanted to see if he was still there. If he was meant to deposit anything in that envelope he'd be aware of what it was he was meant to put in it.

He'd also of know prior to that night as he would not be expected to have a large amount of money in the house on the off chance.

Indeed. If we go with the official line AW was not intended to return the envelope there and them. By extension there can also have been no specific intention to kill him that night. After all according to the official line once AW had been handed the envelope and gone back inside that should have been that for the night.

It was only because AW himself decided himself to go back outside that anything else happened. Quite why he thought the caller might still be there I've never understood and its a complete mystery why indeed he did hang around for nothing risking being spotted or recognised.

He can't have called intending to kill AW but came with a gun prepared for violence. We do know the police haven't released all the details about the envelope or of the conversation beetween AW and Veronica. The police must be aware that it's obvious to anyone that the official version of that nights events makes no sense. I think we have to assume the version that has been released has been done so for a particular reason and not because its the literal truth.
 

dotr

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''Following a recent appeal, detectives have reported that a witness has come forward and recalls seeing two men with a handgun the month before Alistair was shot.
One man reported to have been in his twenties, while the other was said to be between 40 and 60 years old.
They were spotted on East Beach in Nairn, which is near the town where Alistair was shot on his doorstep.
The witness has said that it was they younger of the two men who was carrying the handgun.''

''We told last week how Police Scotland detectives have flown to Nova Scotia to speak with Alistair’s ex-pal Andy Burnett, who ran the Havelock Hotel yards from the Wilson home.''
 

cortina

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this is. a very strange case
correct me if im wrong, but I think mrs Wilson said her husband brought the envelope upstairs...if he'd wanted to protect her, he could have spoken quitely to the man and told her he had the wrong address and was looking for someone. etc....I dont think he realised immediately what it was about, although it may have dawned on him before he spoke to the. man.
like other posters, I dont buy the putting money in the. envelope theory...as. people have said, he'd have had to have the money at home....and while a. birthday card envelope might. be big enough to give you. or I a decent birthday present, you couldn't get the kind of sum into it you'd normally associate with this kind of crime.
I dont think. it was intended for the gunman to. speak...they assumed the victim would know what it was. about...which makes me think they considered the gunman to be unsuitable for negotiations and or. to have a distinct accent that wasn't local.

in view of the speculation about the ira etc, I guess the ul in Paul could stand for ulster loyalists, maybe paramilitaries against or. for ulster loyalists, but im sure. the. police. have thought of that one, and, as other people have said, it. was. hardly dealt with in a professional way.
 

cortina

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What is this link with the IRA and Ulster Loyalists?

in 2005 someone contacted. a radio station and said that he'd been approached by 2 businessmen....one. of whom was. a former member of the ira...to do a deal....when he refused , he was told that they'd do the same to him as. they'd done to Alistair Wilson...according to reports, it seems likely that Wilson knew one. of them, but nothing further has been found...I guess you have to. wonder about the tipster putting his own life in danger, unless he'd been promised that this lead would be kept secret...dont know what happened to him.

It could also have. been just a coincidence that an envelope was written on, in the absence of any other paper, and came from somewhere within the banking community with the word Paul to indicate. that another banker...Paul...had been sacked for whistleblowing and stronger measures could be taken against Wilson if he. followed. his lead.

every theory seems to have merits but not to be fully convincing to me
 

cortina

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it was reported about a year ago....on a podcast, so I. dont know how reliable it is....that the police were trying to trace a local man who had seemed to go out of his way to avoid their routine questioning and was believed to have gone to live in Ireland...dont know if they meant ulster or the republic...I haven't heard anything since.

it certainly wasn't very professional
 

cortina

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sorry for another. post...trying my thoughts out on you

you have to follow the evidence, but the only thing we know the police have that we dont know is the rest of the writing. on the envelope and that hasn't got them anywhere.

so ive been wondering what someone could hope to get from the victim

if it was a business connected with. his previous job, they must have known he couldn't afford the. kind of money they needed...if they. only wanted revenge, he'd have been shot immediately,...if they thought he could get them help in his new job, they were deluded...I know a. few people who were in banking at that time and all the banks had been far too lax...theyd tightened up and a lot of good customers as well as bad had suffered.

there has been speculation that he may have had gambling debts, an affair or an illegitimate child....as. far as I know, this is pure speculation, but I. suppose if it was for a personal debt, they maybe wanted him to put a cheque in the envelope.

it makes more sense to me. that this was a warning not to do something....to spill the beans. about something he knew...the. link with the banker named Paul. wouldn't have struck. him. immediately...ive been looking at. the HSBC. mistakes and its big stuff....missing...was it accidentally...money laundering by criminals in the uk and Mexican drugs gangs in the us....its. possible there was some involvement by people in ulster , the. republic, or Irish people. elsewhere....and paramilitaries on both sides have used. businesses. to raise. funds and. bank accounts to launder money.....but I dont think the motive was anything to do with the troubles per se.


this seems. the most likely motive. to me...ill probably change my mind tonight, but what do you think
 
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