UK UK - Alistair Wilson, 30, Nairn, Scotland, 28 November 2004

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by shadowdancer, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. Keine Engel

    Keine Engel Grand Imperial Archduchess of Great Giggleswick

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    If nothing else ruling out these weapons is a positive.
    It does seem plausible it could bring a tip/clue or even info. leading in a new direction? Due to the low numbers produced by whittling down possibilities they're then able to rule out, it can do nothing but help I guess o_O
     
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  2. Markybug

    Markybug Active Member

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    It was a very businesslike killing ( no offence meant) not a crime of passion or anger ? Almost like a deal went wrong , or time limit was up etc.
     
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  3. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Ex-detective claims mystery blue envelope holds key to Alistair Wilson murder
    "The obvious questions are, ‘Who is Paul and where is the greetings card that was in that envelope? Was the card sold with it? Was it sitting in someone’s drawer? Where was the card or envelope bought? How many manufacturers of those envelopes are there in the UK and who do they supply to?’”

    Bleksley believes the assassin originally intended to negotiate with Alistair.

    It’s believed the gunman may have demanded cash."

    [​IMG]
    Image: BBC
    When Veronica answered the door, she saw a man in his late 30s wearing a dark jacket and a baseball cap. He asked for Alistair by name, and Veronica duly sent her husband downstairs. A short time later, he reappeared in their sons’ room, clutching a blue envelope addressed to someone called Paul.
    Sacred, Sad And Salacious: With Many Meanings, What Is True Blue?
    "Back in Colonial America, blue meant indecent. Lawmakers established rigid controls over morals and conduct; the so-called "blue laws" were designed "to encourage people to go to church, and to prohibit people from engaging in secular activities," says David L. Hudson Jr., an author and attorney who teaches about the first amendment at Vanderbilt University and the Nashville School of Law. The idea behind blue laws was to make certain activities illegal on Sundays."
    "Comedian Milton Berle even found blue envelopes in his mailbox."
    "The idea of blue meaning forbidden, adult, humor worked its way into Hollywood, and became a standard show business term.

    "It was used in all areas of the business," says Kenrick. "So if you said something was blue, it meant it was dirty, it had to go."

    The Dreaded Blue Envelope
    "What is the most feared and dreaded part of living in the Netherlands? The aspect that would make even the Prime Minister quake in his boots? The police? The cheese? The dijks bursting? If you suggested any of these, you’d be wrongity wrong wrong wrong.

    So what is it then? Ask any Dutchie and they’ll tell you. It’s receiving the Blue Envelope. What’s the Blue Envelope? Why is it so feared? Let me explain.

    The Blue Envelope is the Belastingdienst (Tax Office) getting in contact and most residents will receive them multiple times a year – income tax and road tax to name just two"

    Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder, by Frank L. Packard
    Title: Jimmie Dale and the Blue Envelope Murder
    Author: Packard, Frank Lucius (1877-1942)
    Date of first publication: 1930
    The Greatest Crime Novels of Frank L. Packard (14 Titles in One Edition)
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  4. Markybug

    Markybug Active Member

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    How much money would you get in s wee envelope though ? Enough to kill if you didn’t?
     
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  5. Keine Engel

    Keine Engel Grand Imperial Archduchess of Great Giggleswick

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    Oh I agree it was 'businesslike' in the manner it was carried out. It possibly had a connection to his work I don't doubt it but it seems unlikely nothing would've been uncovered if any criminal dealing/mishandling had been directly within or through the 'bank' itself :confused:
    (I'm not explaining what I mean very well ;))
    Everything is so strictly controlled within & linked together within the 'corporate-network' any kind of discrepancy would have shown up eventually - I'd think?
     
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  6. Keine Engel

    Keine Engel Grand Imperial Archduchess of Great Giggleswick

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    I can't imagine why someone in this day & age would possibly think ANYONE would even have that kind of cash easily accessible especially on a Sunday evening?
    And ^ this.
    How much cash would a typical greeting card sized envelope hold?
    Hardly worth killing for :(
    Yet whoever was & fully prepared to ... he WAS armed with a loaded weapon.
     
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  7. jambers

    jambers Member

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    Assuming it was cash that was wanted - could it have been something else?
     
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  8. trendsetter

    trendsetter Member

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    The Envelope - Speculation

    I've already discussed the possibility that Alistair was expected to put cash into the envelope. If it wasn't cash then what else could it have been? Whatever it is it's got to be small enough to fit inside the envelope. Observation: The gun is small enough to fit inside the envelope.

    Here's my list of possibilities (some are more probable than others):

    Key.
    Combination for a lock or safe*.
    Password*.
    PIN*.
    Security access card/keycard.
    Credit or debit card.
    Mobile phone.
    SIM card.
    Memory card.
    Floppy disc.
    CD.
    Document(s) (note - the envelope has been described as a roughly quarter of A4 in size (i.e. A6) so it couldn't hold much).
    Cheque.
    Passport.
    Driver's licence.
    Drugs.​

    * these could have been given over the phone.
     
  9. jambers

    jambers Member

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    All plausible; one could potentially add to the list - the envelope is (one) of the bizarre elements here.

    Fact: AW was in possession (for a time) of an envelope handed to him by someone he did not know. Given the situation, what reason would AW have to take said envelope?

    According to reports, AW left the killer on the doorstep none the wiser as to what the killer "Meant" but he had taken an envelope: one would assume that in that situation you'd be less inclined to take something from someone ("I don't know what you are on about, but nevertheless I will take this envelope") does not seem a normal thought process (?)

    There can really then only be two potential theories which are possible.

    1) As soon as AW got to the door, the killer handed the envelope saying "This is for you" and AW took it, innocently and the conversation then took place. AW might not look in the envelope or pay too much attention to it while ascertaining he doesn't have a clue what the visitor is talking about - the 'truth' about the envelope becomes clear after he goes back in.

    2) The killer hands the envelope over while saying something relating to its purpose - perhaps "You know what to put in here" or something along those lines.

    Both theories have problems and questions: in the first, AW would have to not see the name "Paul" (if he did, why keep the envelope?) while in the second, would there not be less chance of AW accepting something following a conversation he 'does not understand' or having no idea what he's supposed to do with?

    Meanwhile AW spoke to his wife. "He gave me this envelope" is all that we are told was said: Did AW really say this, giving no reason? Did his wife not ask "What for?" Did AW give any reason?

    AW was then, after returning to the door, shot following a short exchange with the killer.

    Barring random acts of lunacy, some serious perceived wrong or a crime of passion/gang related or underworld stuff, murders in this manner (especially shootings) are extremely rare - the killer must have had a reason.

    Yet at the same time, if AW was "clueless" ("Sorry mate I don't know what you mean") - and had not been threatened (to come up with something if that was the purpose of the envelope) - this must have been clear to the killer (insofar as they'd need to be aware the person they are speaking to clearly isn't going to do what is being asked of them) - which raises the question "Why would the killer then wait" (What were they thinking would happen).

    The murder then took place following some sort of (short) conversation.

    If you want something badly enough to visit someone in that manner you are not going to get it if you then shoot them. If something is that important then people with the ability to have killers on the job (unless a loner) could surely find other methods to obtain whatever they wanted (?)
     
  10. Lyndaloo

    Lyndaloo Well-Known Member

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    I’m still rather confused over this blue envelope. I have read various articles in MSM and they are conflicting information. Apparently the envelope is a crucial piece of evidence, yet the police don’t have it? Alistair gave it back to the gunman. In some articles it states A6 in size others state A4 ? Also I have read the envelope was empty & I have also read Alistair never opened the envelope.....if that is the case, how does anyone know it was empty?
     
  11. jambers

    jambers Member

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    One theory around is the envelope (or name on it) was meant to get into the media as a warning to someone. It doesn't explain what connection to AW this has, why the killer waited (how would they know he'd come back with the envelope) - I mean, they could have (while waiting on AW) wrote "Paul" on the door with a marker pen, with very little chance of leaving any evidence and certainly getting a message across - and yes, there are some apparently contradictory comments about the envelope although this might be people's interpretation of what was said?
     
  12. Lyndaloo

    Lyndaloo Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it seems strange the gunman would hang around on the doorstep (directly across from a busy pub, where he could have been seen ) to wait on the off chance of Alistair reappearing. I think police know a lot more about this case than they wish to make public. Initially I believed Veronica was the only witness but on reading MSM articles it seems someone else saw Alistair & gunman chatting on doorstep but never saw his face.
    If memory serves me correctly they had only bought their house 18 months prior to shooting, house now valued at roughly £400,000 so a very expensive purchases with considerable mortgage? They were running a restaurant business from home that had recently failed. And he was due to start a new job in next couple of weeks. I’m assuming Veronica would have been out of work (running restaurant & 2 small kids to look after?) Money must have been tight....perhaps he was doing dodgy dealings at the bank (for someone involved with organised crime & receiving backhanders for doing so?) but police are keeping this close to their chest, I don’t believe they have ever ruled it out? Maybe he realised he was out of his depth, committing crime on their behalf which if caught by the bank could result in prison sentence. Decides to leave the bank as a way out (probably not a wise choice for someone who is 100% squeaky clean with a wife & 2 young kids to support) If so perhaps his “associate” was upset by this & sent hitman with the envelope with note (threat) in it asking him to reconsider? He Knows gunman is waiting on reply of some sort...goes back inside to think what to do, maybe not realising just how much danger he is in? Veronica asks who caller was & he tells his wife he’s not got a clue about the caller or envelope ( doesn’t want to upset her as she genuinely has no idea of what he’s been up to). Decides he’s defo leaving bank for new job...new fresh start for him & his family? He thinks going straight is the better option & tells gunman this and then he’s shot. Probably didn’t realise he was gonna have to pay with his life for not doing what he was told. All just my theory.
     
  13. jambers

    jambers Member

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    Yes. Something mentioned (possibly on the Podcast) was that "PAUL" was short for "Pay And yoU Live"; what we are told clearly indicates this message was missed by AW (would that be a 'message' anyone would understand?); the Police - apparently witheld the envelope detail so as NOT to 'advertise' the name Paul. Is it plausible to propose, however, that the killer - in order to get some name out in the press, chose the method they did?
     
  14. bubblepup

    bubblepup Former Member

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    Oh really now. This sort of "deciphering" is a recent trend, related to how far-fetched conspiracies have gained purchase. I know little about this case but I do know bull when I smell it. The discourse these days: DUMBED DOWN.
     
  15. Lyndaloo

    Lyndaloo Well-Known Member

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    If I was handed an envelope & it said PAUL on in, I certainly wouldn’t have thought of the Pay And U Live thing...I don’t think many would make the connection.
    There has been a lot of speculation of the Glasgow Underworld & the name Paul...there may be some truth in it there may not.
    Remember back in 2004 there were only 10 aspects of dna to look at now there are 24 & the police have the murder weapon & a cigarette butt found on the doorstep...is it just a matter of time before the killer s found?
    Found this article rather interesting Nairn banker Alistair Wilson murder cops on trail of expat former neighbour
    Shaun refused to give his dna according to his brother. For that reason I find it very strange that police didn’t interview Shaun. You would think if he was the guy on doorstep Veronica would have recognised him being a local? Maybe not, he may have worked away a lot? His dad thinks Shaun should speak to help the police & Shauns brother believes police are looking for Shaun for the dna sample he failed to give in 2004 ...my thinking is maybe he left the local area because at the very least he knows too much? Doesn’t want to speak to police about the Paul connection as it’s more than his life’s worth? Can’t look at Alistair’s family without feeling guilty?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  16. Lyndaloo

    Lyndaloo Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to add Shaun lived in Cumming Street at the time which is about a 1-2 min walk from Alistair’s home depending on how far down the street he lived, I know his dad has given him an alibi saying he was at home on the night of the murder...but would it have been to hard for Shaun to leave & enter via back door or window unknown to his father? Especially as he would only have been gone around 10-15 mins max (imo this would be more likely if he lived on the side of the street facing onto The Links grass park area). Looking at google maps street view shows The links car park at the bottom of cumming street which has lots of caravans & lorries in it...I wonder if it was like that back in 2004 and if it would be as busy in November? If would be great if someone could add a map of area so others could see how close this is all is. Alistair’s house was no 10.
     
  17. touch

    touch Member

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    Those lorries and caravans are part of a travelling fair. They'd be there maybe 1 weekend a year.
    The area they are parked at is the main car park for the beach and Cumming Street is the main route in/out of the car park. It's very busy in the summer months. It would be less busy but still well-used on a Sunday in November but by that time of night it would have been dark and if anyone was still around at the beach car park possibly wouldn't have even seen anyone walking anyway.
     
  18. jambers

    jambers Member

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    I've uploaded a map. The red square is AW's street; Links car Park can be seen to be just to the north. The gun was found where the red circle is on the map.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. jambers

    jambers Member

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    Yes the entire area is also well used from dawn til dusk - walkers, dog walkers, and local kids out and about. That time on a winter sunday as you say very few people would be 'hanging about'. Which way the killer went when the left Crescent road is 50/50 but the did reach Seabank Road. It's conceivable they could have walked 'around the houses' and no one would have given a second glance / seen anything out of place.
     
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  20. Lyndaloo

    Lyndaloo Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou Touch for clarifying this.
     
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