UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, York University, 18 March 2009 - Chef - #2

[moonsafari]

@moonsafari The CCTV shows the person going out of shot and so it is difficult to say. They appear to come from Direction of CL house and then return in same direction. It could be something as simple as someone calling on a mate to go to Nags but they weren't in?
It would be easy for Police to look at any movement from Heworth Place due to CCTV (People and car comings and goings).
As there is only one way out / in to Heworth Place and covered by CCTV.
If they were just going into alleyway they wouldn't even have time to get to CL house but they could have "Kept watch" at end of alley for someone if they were transporting something / someone out of CL or another house backing into alley way that comes out at other end in Nags Car Park.
I will take a look again at CCTV and see if I can tell.

One question I have for you @moonsafari. There appears to be a Shed / Outhouse at rear of Nags car park in back corner near alley way.
It could have been used for storage or for Beer kegs?

Could something been hidden there for onward transportation to be dumped?

One of theories I have seen on this site is that CL was transported out of rear of her house and along alleyway to Nags Car Park. As Nags CCTV was not working then she could have been placed in store area or straight into a car?

Unsure about the shed presumably yes but like I wrote I think the carpark was accessible via the alleyway in 09. Trying to deduce if HP backgardens back onto the alleyway too - not sure they do.

 

[moonsafari]

The half decrepit garage/ scrap area at the rear of NH carpark was eerie. I think its accessible to one or two backgardens on East Parade too

 

[moonsafari]

"Footage shows him walking into Heworth Place, which leads to the back of her home, before reappearing a minute later, on both occasions."

Man near alley 'still key' in Claudia case

The alleyway leads to the back of her home, not HP?

 

[Cherwell]

Back to Claudia case: Can anyone remember that the evening CCTV of man in black at side of house. There has been commentary on some Blogs that the first CCTV police issued showed a man stood outside of the doorway oposite side of road. The second time the police issued same CCTV the man in doorway had been removed??? Does anyone else recall this strange "Change" of CCTV footage? Woder why

If it's the one I think you mean, I think it was just a trick of the light. There are hanging baskets either side of the door and in poor light they might give the illusion of somebody standing there.

 

[Kiri]

turn the sound down! But this is an interesting interpretation of the man/men on cctv. It looks to me IMO the man/men may be watching Claudia's house door back/front etc. NYP website still have this info. on their pages ie haven't taken off explaining it was the owner of nearby flats who used to check them (who later died of heart attack) - I'll have to check the book 'Gone' again for a recap, but these men seem soooo suspicious.... as if covering all Claudia's possible escape routes?!? She surely got in a car in the eve/AM as only explanation for not being in cctv.

Stupid music but interesting.

 

[moonsafari]

Stupid music but interesting.

>>>Unsure about the shed presumably yes but like I wrote I think the carpark was accessible via the alleyway in 09. Trying to deduce if HP backgardens back onto the alleyway too - not sure they do<<<

CCTV

Variables if guilty person/s in shot: culprit/s awareness of one/both cameras and their scope of vision, existence of the third man, whether just one man is involved or both/all three, Claudia being at home (and their being aware either way,) wherever she is Claudia has her phone, at first at least

Let's say at least one of the potentially three men in shot are involved, but remember this was 7.15 over an hour before Claudia's last phonecall. Most likely in the context of everything else:

Road crosser/alleyman: just a passerby/taking a piss, went to the pub involved or not, entered Claudia's house via front door/walked with her somewhere away from shop cctv seen or not by NH ppl possibly to a car, scrambled round NH carpark into alleyway and entered CL backgate away from cctv freely/picked a lock then either waited in garden for a while (toothbrush downstairs?) or if welcome entered her home as if he'd just walked round from Heworth Place into the alley when he hadn't, alternatively one of them padlocked/barricaded gate

Possible third person: doesn't exist, is a random person waiting for a lift or similar, disapproved of alleyman and stared for whatever reason or waiting for signal, keeping watch for someone coming round the corner of HP/LC for whatever reason, most scenarios mentioned for Road crosser/alleyman

 

[MajorLang]

Stupid music but interesting.

What I need help with is the following:

The Morning 19th March 2009 Shot at 5:07 am

I believed this CCTV was discounted because it was identified as Landlord / Railway carriage cleaner. He died after being cleared as he was just checking one of his properties.
In this CCTV you see a person in a Short Light jacket and on the "opposite side" of road to CL house walking in direction of Nags Head.


However
There was also a very similar CCTV as @Kiri shows, taken on the evening of 18th around 7pm:

The Evening 18th March 2009 CCTV Shot around 7:00 PM

CCTV of man 'still key' in Claudia Lawrence case

A Person walks past in a short light jacket and dark pants but this time on CL side of road and walking in the direction of Nags head. This man makes the dark figure stop.

In both CCTV's the Dark stranger and the man in Light short jacket appear.

If the AM CCTV has been discounted by police as being the landlord checking properties, why is person with Light jacket and dark trousers in both???
And
The Dark figure may be dressed slightly differently but their Stride appears to be the same deliberate and quite pronounced in both CCTV's

So to summaries-My questions that I need Slueths help on are:

Are we to discount one of these CCTV's and if so which one?
Do you agree that the Dark and Light people appear to be the same or very similar in both CCTV footage?

 

[MajorLang]

>>>Unsure about the shed presumably yes but like I wrote I think the carpark was accessible via the alleyway in 09. Trying to deduce if HP backgardens back onto the alleyway too - not sure they do<<<

CCTV

Variables if guilty person/s in shot: culprit/s awareness of one/both cameras and their scope of vision, existence of the third man, whether just one man is involved or both/all three, Claudia being at home (and their being aware either way,) wherever she is Claudia has her phone, at first at least

Let's say at least one of the potentially three men in shot are involved, but remember this was 7.15 over an hour before Claudia's last phonecall. Most likely in the context of everything else:

Road crosser/alleyman: just a passerby/taking a piss, went to the pub involved or not, entered Claudia's house via front door/walked with her somewhere away from shop cctv seen or not by NH ppl possibly to a car, scrambled round NH carpark into alleyway and entered CL backgate away from cctv freely/picked a lock then either waited in garden for a while (toothbrush downstairs?) or if welcome entered her home as if he'd just walked round from Heworth Place into the alley when he hadn't, alternatively one of them padlocked/barricaded gate

Possible third person: doesn't exist, is a random person waiting for a lift or similar, disapproved of alleyman and stared for whatever reason or waiting for signal, keeping watch for someone coming round the corner of HP/LC for whatever reason, most scenarios mentioned for Road crosser/alleyman

Unsure about the shed presumably yes but like I wrote I think the carpark was accessible via the alleyway in 09. Trying to deduce if HP backgardens back onto the alleyway too - not sure they do.

@moonsafari- Yes Nags Car Park is accessible from CL back garden, from House in Heworth Place and Lane connects all 3 places. It did back in 2009.
I read somewhere that the alley has since been blocked off at Nags end.

I attach a screenshot of arial view of CL house and one of POIs properties with arrow showing how to get from Heworth Place and CL properties, along alley and into Nags Car Park.
Also I have highlighted Shed in Car Park at Nags.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

What I need help with is the following:

The Morning 19th March 2009 Shot at 5:07 am

I believed this CCTV was discounted because it was identified as Landlord / Railway carriage cleaner. He died after being cleared as he was just checking one of his properties.
In this CCTV you see a person in a Short Light jacket and on the "opposite side" of road to CL house walking in direction of Nags Head.


However
There was also a very similar CCTV as @Kiri shows, taken on the evening of 18th around 7pm:

The Evening 18th March 2009 CCTV Shot around 7:00 PM

CCTV of man 'still key' in Claudia Lawrence case

A Person walks past in a short light jacket and dark pants but this time on CL side of road and walking in the direction of Nags head. This man makes the dark figure stop.

In both CCTV's the Dark stranger and the man in Light short jacket appear.

If the AM CCTV has been discounted by police as being the landlord checking properties, why is person with Light jacket and dark trousers in both???
And
The Dark figure may be dressed slightly differently but their Stride appears to be the same deliberate and quite pronounced in both CCTV's

So to summaries-My questions that I need Slueths help on are:

Are we to discount one of these CCTV's and if so which one?
Do you agree that the Dark and Light people appear to be the same or very similar in both CCTV footage?

Hi,

I feel the Dark figure is the same person in both AM and PM cctv. The stride is identical and I see a slight 'limp' from a current injury / Longterm injury/ Birth etc. . Almost as if one leg is possibly shorter than other? Moo

 

[MajorLang]

Hi,

I feel the Dark figure is the same person in both AM and PM cctv. The stride is identical and I see a slight 'limp' from a current injury / Longterm injury/ Birth etc. . Almost as if one leg is possibly shorter than other? Moo

@Spy Versus Spy Thats what I thought. So that would suggest that there was activity at 7:00 pm on 18th and 5:07 on Morning of 19th.
Given if CL was abducted / Murdered then the window of opportunity in the eyes of Perps would end any time after 06:00 on 19th-The time that CL would be deemed late for work. As it transpired, the window was much wider because the missing report didn't come until 14:00 on Next Day. The perps would want to dispose of anything as soon as they could by 06:00. The Mobile being turned off much later (12:10-Explicit Network disconnection) (Explicit meaning Turned off or SIM removed) An Implicit network disconnection would indicate battery drain or damaged phone.
This is a bit of a puzzle unless they couldn't initially find it-Were hunting for it??? Did it fall from her when she was moved and were they seeking this??

 

[MajorLang]

Al

"Footage shows him walking into Heworth Place, which leads to the back of her home, before reappearing a minute later, on both occasions."

Man near alley 'still key' in Claudia case

The alleyway leads to the back of her home, not HP?

Alley leads to back of CL property and other POI Property

 

[Kiri]

What I need help with is the following:

The Morning 19th March 2009 Shot at 5:07 am

I believed this CCTV was discounted because it was identified as Landlord / Railway carriage cleaner. He died after being cleared as he was just checking one of his properties.
In this CCTV you see a person in a Short Light jacket and on the "opposite side" of road to CL house walking in direction of Nags Head.


However
There was also a very similar CCTV as @Kiri shows, taken on the evening of 18th around 7pm:

The Evening 18th March 2009 CCTV Shot around 7:00 PM

CCTV of man 'still key' in Claudia Lawrence case

A Person walks past in a short light jacket and dark pants but this time on CL side of road and walking in the direction of Nags head. This man makes the dark figure stop.

In both CCTV's the Dark stranger and the man in Light short jacket appear.

If the AM CCTV has been discounted by police as being the landlord checking properties, why is person with Light jacket and dark trousers in both???
And
The Dark figure may be dressed slightly differently but their Stride appears to be the same deliberate and quite pronounced in both CCTV's

So to summaries-My questions that I need Slueths help on are:

Are we to discount one of these CCTV's and if so which one?
Do you agree that the Dark and Light people appear to be the same or very similar in both CCTV footage?

Book says (pg 52-53) 5 AM cctv is RC (died 3 weeks later of heart attack) checking flats BUT doesn't mention evening cctv man, which IMO makes me think evening man is of main interest. Police want to speak to the other (hadn't noticed his similarity to tan jacket man b4!!!) as may be witness that's all (says book). Hmmm. Are we sure it's not RC in eve?? Police did clear him, but I agree looks v. similar!! Did police ID/speak to witness? I'm not sure.

 

[moonsafari]

@moonsafari- Yes Nags Car Park is accessible from CL back garden, from House in Heworth Place and Lane connects all 3 places. It did back in 2009.
I read somewhere that the alley has since been blocked off at Nags end.

I attach a screenshot of arial view of CL house and one of POIs properties with arrow showing how to get from Heworth Place and CL properties, along alley and into Nags Car Park.
Also I have highlighted Shed in Car Park at Nags.

I meant if the HP gardens had backgates leading to the alleyway or just walls. Looking at pics, ambiguous

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

@Spy Versus Spy Thats what I thought. So that would suggest that there was activity at 7:00 pm on 18th and 5:07 on Morning of 19th.
Given if CL was abducted / Murdered then the window of opportunity in the eyes of Perps would end any time after 06:00 on 19th-The time that CL would be deemed late for work. As it transpired, the window was much wider because the missing report didn't come until 14:00 on Next Day. The perps would want to dispose of anything as soon as they could by 06:00. The Mobile being turned off much later (12:10-Explicit Network disconnection) (Explicit meaning Turned off or SIM removed) An Implicit network disconnection would indicate battery drain or damaged phone.
This is a bit of a puzzle unless they couldn't initially find it-Were hunting for it??? Did it fall from her when she was moved and were they seeking this??

Just a few thoughts after recent posts .....( Ive dipped in and out of the case over the last few Months after attempting to catch up. I have a fair overview but I dont know the details as well as you guys so ...forgive if unhelpful)

Top of my head....

When Dark Guy goes out of cctv shot before reappearing, on both vids, is that the Alleyway indicated by the start of the Pink line on the overhead shot of houses etc?

The time off camera seems incredibly short on both occasions ( 1m 08s on 7pm one....approx 49s on 5am) to be reaching a destination down the Alley? Or doing anything too meaninful?

Is he checking if a light is on ( someone at home) both at night and to see if its changed in morn? I.e. Has CL ( or another resident) gone out and stayed out? Why may he or someone want to know this?

Theres no way he could be checking his/a vehicle?

Is he meeting someone coming from the other end of the Alley( Pub) to exchange something out of sight? Or someone from a house along the Alley to exchange something?


Im not convinced that it is 100% certain ,in the 7pm cctv, that he stops his return to the main road due to the person crossing the junction. He seems to react late . ( maybe checking his phone or keys then sees him?) Or maybe unrelated to guy and stops to check phone, keys etc? Especially as it seems he doesnt leave a huge timegap before rejoing the main road and potentially still visible/audible to the other guy who has just passed?
Also doesnt seem overly concerned about being spotted by any of cars passing on Main Road? ( slightly contradictary as this could also indicate that it is indeed the passing guy that he knows and therefore wants to avoid?

A simple piss stop x2?!


Does he arrive with the supposed bag he may be carrying when leaving?

Are these the only occasions he appears on that cctv around that month year etc?

 

[Kiri]

NYP have never revealed any more cctv of this man doing this routine so assuming it's just on these times...but how does that equate to 'checking flats". I've said it b4 why check at 5am? could he not sleep?/were burglaries being carried out at around that time so he wanted to check at this strange time...as you say very quick checking!!!! I know RC (the man NYP originally said was this man) was cleared of any involvement and sadly deceased. But my god the whole thing is odd!!!! Actions/timings/circumstance/Is it actually him/not him/who etc.

Just a few thoughts after recent posts .....( Ive dipped in and out of the case over the last few Months after attempting to catch up. I have a fair overview but I dont know the details as well as you guys so ...forgive if unhelpful)

Top of my head....

When Dark Guy goes out of cctv shot before reappearing, on both vids, is that the Alleyway indicated by the start of the Pink line on the overhead shot of houses etc?

The time off camera seems incredibly short on both occasions ( 1m 08s on 7pm one....approx 49s on 5am) to be reaching a destination down the Alley? Or doing anything too meaninful?

Is he checking if a light is on ( someone at home) both at night and to see if its changed in morn? I.e. Has CL ( or another resident) gone out and stayed out? Why may he or someone want to know this?

Theres no way he could be checking his/a vehicle?

Is he meeting someone coming from the other end of the Alley( Pub) to exchange something out of sight? Or someone from a house along the Alley to exchange something?


Im not convinced that it is 100% certain ,in the 7pm cctv, that he stops his return to the main road due to the person crossing the junction. He seems to react late . ( maybe checking his phone or keys then sees him?) Or maybe unrelated to guy and stops to check phone, keys etc? Especially as it seems he doesnt leave a huge timegap before rejoing the main road and potentially still visible/audible to the other guy who has just passed?
Also doesnt seem overly concerned about being spotted by any of cars passing on Main Road? ( slightly contradictary as this could also indicate that it is indeed the passing guy that he knows and therefore wants to avoid?

A simple piss stop x2?!


Does he arrive with the supposed bag he may be carrying when leaving?

Are these the only occasions he appears on that cctv around that month year etc?

 

[Yozzer]

What if we are to assume the bag he carries is Claudia's rucksack? So then his purpose for visiting the alley in the 7pm video is to retrieve the bag. Yet we are led to believe she was safely installed in her house at this point.

 

[Pinkizzy]

• Duplicate post

 

[Pinkizzy]

• Someone local could retrace his steps and time it

 

[MajorLang]

I meant if the HP gardens had backgates leading to the alleyway or just walls. Looking at pics, ambiguous

@moonsafari The house at No#15 of POI has no gate to back garden and is open plan onto the alleyway.

 

[Pinkizzy]

What if we are to assume the bag he carries is Claudia's rucksack? So then his purpose for visiting the alley in the 7pm video is to retrieve the bag. Yet we are led to believe she was safely installed in her house at this point.

What was he doing at 5am tho?