UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

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rightsaidfred said:
Midwives and doulas are totally different things.

In the UK, midwives are medical professionals who need a university degree in the subject, and most NHS maternity care in the UK is carried out by midwives.

Doulas do not require qualifications, and have a supportive but not medical role in childbirth. They're very much an optional service, and not something you'd get on the NHS.
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doula.org.uk

About doulas - Doula UK

Doulas provide continuous support for the whole family through pregnancy, birth and in the early days of parenthood. Filling a role that new parents and families have always needed, we are there to listen, give confidence and not judge. Offering flexible, practical and emotional support in homes...
doula.org.uk doula.org.uk
 
Yes, I have been thinking about this too.

Just have to wait it seems now for them to appear at the CC Court on the 31st March.

I wonder if those 'further tests' have been done.

Quote from the BBC News: A post-mortem examination could not establish a cause of death and further tests will take place, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
 
Penny68 said:
Yes, I have been thinking about this too.

Just have to wait it seems now for them to appear at the CC Court on the 31st March.

I wonder if those 'further tests' have been done.

Quote from the BBC News: A post-mortem examination could not establish a cause of death and further tests will take place, the Metropolitan Police said in a statement.
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We shouldn't have to wait for court proceedings to start before an inquest to be opened and adjourned.
 
Nikynoo said:
We shouldn't have to wait for court proceedings to start before an inquest to be opened and adjourned.
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Just a comment as a Canadian, but it would seem unusual for an inquest to be held in an attempt to determine the cause of death of the child while the parents are being held on manslaughter charges? I would expect similar medical arguments and expert witness opinions will be heard during the trial, rather than at an inquest?

“…..Coroners are responsible for making enquiries where the cause is unknown and the investigations are done on their behalf by a Coroner’s Officer. It is different to other Courts because there are no formal allegations or accusations and no power to blame anyone directly for the death. At the end of the Inquest, the Coroner will give his/her Conclusion and this will appear on the final Death Certificate. The death can then be officially registered……”
 
Nikynoo said:
I'm still curious about any inquest for the baby. Surely, it should have been opened and adjourned by now?
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You can look up upcoming inquests here, but there's nothing listed (even as adjourned): Upcoming inquests

Looking at the basic information included for each of the cases listed, I'm wondering whether there are some key pieces of data that need to be established before her inquest can even be scheduled, e.g. her legal name - insofar as her birth was never registered - her date of death, and her place of death. Perhaps without at least one of those basics even opening and adjourning can't be done for the time being, although in the absence of her parents' cooperation, some kind of estimating/approximating will have to be done eventually.

I'm not speaking with any authority, just speculating. I can try and find out more.

MistyWaters said:
Just a comment as a Canadian, but it would seem unusual for an inquest to be held in an attempt to determine the cause of death of the child while the parents are being held on manslaughter charges? I would expect similar medical arguments and expert witness opinions will be heard during the trial, rather than at an inquest?

“…..Coroners are responsible for making enquiries where the cause is unknown and the investigations are done on their behalf by a Coroner’s Officer. It is different to other Courts because there are no formal allegations or accusations and no power to blame anyone directly for the death. At the end of the Inquest, the Coroner will give his/her Conclusion and this will appear on the final Death Certificate. The death can then be officially registered……”
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In the UK, the inquest is normally formally opened by the coroner without too much delay, and is then automatically adjourned until the outcome of any criminal proceedings is known.

Coroners | The Crown Prosecution Service
 
MistyWaters said:
Just a comment as a Canadian, but it would seem unusual for an inquest to be held in an attempt to determine the cause of death of the child while the parents are being held on manslaughter charges? I would expect similar medical arguments and expert witness opinions will be heard during the trial, rather than at an inquest?

“…..Coroners are responsible for making enquiries where the cause is unknown and the investigations are done on their behalf by a Coroner’s Officer. It is different to other Courts because there are no formal allegations or accusations and no power to blame anyone directly for the death. At the end of the Inquest, the Coroner will give his/her Conclusion and this will appear on the final Death Certificate. The death can then be officially registered……”
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Yes, but Inquests are usually opened and adjourned shortly after death as occurred. The full inquest would not be until after any criminal proceeds are completed. An example is here Sarah Everard family hears cause of death not yet established
 
JuicyLucy said:
You can look up upcoming inquests here, but there's nothing listed (even as adjourned): Upcoming inquests

Looking at the basic information included for each of the cases listed, I'm wondering whether there are some key pieces of data that need to be established before her inquest can even be scheduled, e.g. her legal name - insofar as her birth was never registered - her date of death, and her place of death. Perhaps without at least one of those basics even opening and adjourning can't be done for the time being, although in the absence of her parents' cooperation, some kind of estimating/approximating will have to be done eventually.

I'm not speaking with any authority, just speculating. I can try and find out more.


In the UK, the inquest is normally formally opened by the coroner without too much delay, and is then automatically adjourned until the outcome of any criminal proceedings is known.

Coroners | The Crown Prosecution Service
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BBM, a very good point! Thank you! I would be grateful if you can find out more. Another question, would it definately be held at B&H?
 
Nikynoo said:
BBM, a very good point! Thank you! I would be grateful if you can find out more. Another question, would it definately be held at B&H?
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Well, it's a good question, isn't it! It would normally be held in the area in which the death occurred - but we don't know with certainty where that is, only where the baby's body was found.

In the unusual situation we have here, where those two events may not have occurred in the same place, I'm not sure what the rule would be, but tend to think in the absence of certainty it would take place in Brighton. (There may be some precedent we can find for that.)

Technically, the post mortem will have been requested by the coroner, so wherever that took place would ordinarily tell us which coroner's jurisdiction it fell under at that time. I had been under the impression that the PM took place at Brighton, but now that I come to look I can't actually find that confirmed anywhere. In any case, the PM was conducted by a specialist paediatric pathologist, which may have meant moving her elsewhere (though more likely would have involved them coming to her) so there's all sorts of uncertainty at play. Whether the case would be transferred to another coroner if it emerges that Victoria in fact died elsewhere than Brighton, I don't know.

On balance, I do think that at the present time it probably falls under the jurisdiction of the Brighton coroner, because I think that if an inquest had been opened and adjourned in, say, London, or Bolton, for instance, then the clear implication that CM or MG had revealed the baby's death took place elsewhere would almost certainly have been picked up and reported on in the MSM.

But again, just speculating. I will try to find out more, though, because it's a strange omission, and it would be good to understand.

JMO
 
Nikynoo said:
BBM, a very good point! Thank you! I would be grateful if you can find out more. Another question, would it definately be held at B&H?
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"Coroners will conduct inquests into a death where the deceased's body is lying in their district (geographical 'jurisdiction'); prosecutors should note the provision in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 brought into force, by Commencement Order No.11, Order 2013 allows greater flexibility for a Coroner to conduct an inquest in another district."

"Coronial jurisdictions"​

Coroners | The Crown Prosecution Service

So, yes, almost certainly Brighton and Hove, regardless of where the death transpires to have taken place, because that is where the baby's body was located.
 
Nikynoo said:
I'm still curious about any inquest for the baby. Surely, it should have been opened and adjourned by now?
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The Coroners (Inquests) Rules 2013

These Rules regulate the practice and procedure relating to inquests conducted as part of an investigation into a death under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (“the 2009 Act”). These Rules set out the procedure for managing the proceedings at an inquest and make provision relating to the...
www.legislation.gov.uk www.legislation.gov.uk

I would have thought it would already have opened too.
Reporting restrictions? Never heard of the mere fact of the opening of an inquest being subject to a reporting blackout before, but what reasonable grounds might delay an opening, given that a body has been discovered and given that the criminal proceedings suggest the death may well not have resulted from natural causes?
 
JuicyLucy said:
You can look up upcoming inquests here, but there's nothing listed (even as adjourned): Upcoming inquests

Looking at the basic information included for each of the cases listed, I'm wondering whether there are some key pieces of data that need to be established before her inquest can even be scheduled, e.g. her legal name - insofar as her birth was never registered - her date of death, and her place of death. Perhaps without at least one of those basics even opening and adjourning can't be done for the time being, although in the absence of her parents' cooperation, some kind of estimating/approximating will have to be done eventually.

I'm not speaking with any authority, just speculating. I can try and find out more.


In the UK, the inquest is normally formally opened by the coroner without too much delay, and is then automatically adjourned until the outcome of any criminal proceedings is known.

Coroners | The Crown Prosecution Service
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Legal name, date and place of death - none of these need to be known or established before an inquest is opened. An inquest is opened as soon as practical after a body is discovered and there's reason to suspect the death may not have resulted from natural causes.
 
Zuleika said:
Will the inquest details about the baby's death be gone into at the trial ?
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I believe the trial has to take place before the inquest, as they have to reach compatible verdicts.

You can't have the coroner making a verdict of natural causes before the jury finds them guilty of manslaughter, for instance.
 
rightsaidfred said:
I believe the trial has to take place before the inquest, as they have to reach compatible verdicts.

You can't have the coroner making a verdict of natural causes before the jury finds them guilty of manslaughter, for instance.
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Certainly you have to have this backwards? Can someone with knowledge of UK law weigh in?
 
azure said:
Certainly you have to have this backwards? Can someone with knowledge of UK law weigh in?
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rightsaidfred is correct, legal proceedings need to be competed prior to a full inquest. Step 2 should have happened by now.

from this link https://coronerscourtssupportservic...CCSS-EL_Inquest_Factsheet_Final29317221_3.pdf

If there is a criminal prosecution about the death, this takes precedence over the Coroner's Inquest which is put on hold in the meantime. If there is a criminal conviction, often the Inquest is completed without a formal hearing, with the conclusion given as "unlawful killing". If there is no criminal conviction, the Coroner becomes involved again and will usually hold an Inquest and the Police file will usually be sent to him/her.

Inquest process, step by step
1. Reportable death occurs - referred to Coroner.
2. Coroner considers information and decides as to whether an Inquest is required. The Coroner can either request more information (and opens a preliminary "Investigation") or decide there and then that an Inquest is required. The Inquest is "Opened and Adjourned for further investigations".
3. If the Investigation or Inquest is opened, usually a Post-Mortem Examination (also called an autopsy) is performed to establish the probable medical cause of death.
4. If the Post-Mortem shows an Inquest is not necessary after all, the family are informed, and the process concludes. For example, if the post mortem determines the person died of natural causes. (After Post-Mortem, the family can usually then make funeral arrangements)
5. If an Inquest is necessary, the Coroner reviews and decides: -
5.1. If a referral to Police/CPS is needed for possible criminal prosecution.
5.2. If no criminal issues, fixes timetable and calls for evidence.
5.3. If needed, arranges a Pre-Inquest Review (all interested persons, including family, are invited) to discuss relevant issues, review evidence, identify witnesses required and to fix a timetable.
6. When investigations are complete, the Inquest date is fixed, witnesses notified to attend to give evidence and answer questions.
7. Inquest hearing (in public). Coroner gives Conclusion.
8. The Coroner will complete the necessary paperwork and the death can then be registered.
 
The coroner has a different role in Us and UK I believe.

The medical examination (autopsy/post-mortem) is done first. This is legally ratified by the Coroner in the Coroner’s court. But if there is a criminal investigation the Coroner will open proceedings and immediately adjourn them pending police enquiries. After the police enquiries and any court proceedings ie trial the Coroner’s court will reconvene
 
elliefant said:
The coroner has a different role in Us and UK I believe.

The medical examination (autopsy/post-mortem) is done first. This is legally ratified by the Coroner in the Coroner’s court. But if there is a criminal investigation the Coroner will open proceedings and immediately adjourn them pending police enquiries. After the police enquiries and any court proceedings ie trial the Coroner’s court will reconvene
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IMBW but I think in the US the person who carries out the post mortem is called a coroner? In the UK that is done by a pathologist. The coroner is an official, usually a lawyer.
 
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