GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

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Maltesepuppy said:
Yes she said they were going to find someone from the totally not random platform of Gumtree. They would be selecting this person by the rigorous test of "spending time with them". I'm not sure if they specified how long or they would be giving access to their baby to any person who turned up in order to "assess" if they were the right person. To call this a "private foster care" arrangement is a laughable stretch, IMO.
And as for thinking they could recover the children that were removed due to concerns, and have been adopted, it shows how deluded they are. Unless, of course, they were hoping to utilise an alternative route to recover the kids with the help of more Gumtree "recruits". JMO. MOO.
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There's nothing you can't find on Gumtree - I was on there only this morning looking for a second hand rotovator and I couldn't move for prospective "private foster carers". Obviously none of them had DBS checks or were registered to look after other people's children in their own homes, but you can't look a gift horse in the mouth, right?

I seem to recall that CM planned for this rigorously vetted person to also somehow register Victoria's birth with forged paperwork (because you can't just rock up at a registry office to register births and deaths without official paperwork) ... presumably that would have been obtained from all those forgers advertising on Pre-Loved.

MOO ing like a herd of heifers
 
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They had plenty of options to choose that would have kept Victoria alive. They could have easily gone abroad in pregnancy. The other babies were adopted, that was a done deal. They could have prepared for the birth with renting a property longer term. They could have bought the required things. They could have done many things to ensure Victoria's needs were met.

Instead they decided to continue their chaotic lifestyle, moving from holiday let to holiday let right up until birth, with no plans for afterwards. It's not like they had 9 months warning this was happening?!!.

I imagine their tendency towards the chaotic rather than the planned and responsible was part of the reason 4 other children were taken.

Their choice to choose chaos led to them choosing to be in a tent in winter. Again, the planned and sensible option could have avoided that.

She was only inside her coat and suffocated (or died from hypothermia ) because of their choices.

I feel their selfish need to be anti-authority trumped being responsible and making the best choices for Victoria. Therefore, IMO, negligence led to her death and whether that was thru suffocation in a coat or hypothermia is sadly irrelevant. She was only inside a coat because they chose to hide in a tent rather than rent a home before birth.
 
bbsaz said:
They had plenty of options to choose that would have kept Victoria alive. They could have easily gone abroad in pregnancy. The other babies were adopted, that was a done deal. They could have prepared for the birth with renting a property longer term. They could have bought the required things. They could have done many things to ensure Victoria's needs were met.

Instead they decided to continue their chaotic lifestyle, moving from holiday let to holiday let right up until birth, with no plans for afterwards. It's not like they had 9 months warning this was happening?!!.

I imagine their tendency towards the chaotic rather than the planned and responsible was part of the reason 4 other children were taken.

Their choice to choose chaos led to them choosing to be in a tent in winter. Again, the planned and sensible option could have avoided that.

She was only inside her coat and suffocated (or died from hypothermia ) because of their choices.

I feel their selfish need to be anti-authority trumped being responsible and making the best choices for Victoria. Therefore, IMO, negligence led to her death and whether that was thru suffocation in a coat or hypothermia is sadly irrelevant. She was only inside a coat because they chose to hide in a tent rather than rent a home before birth.
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I can understand your frustration and anger at the death of a baby. What you say may be true of a rational sane person. From what I understand from the defence arguments is that Martin and Gordon were paranoid that someone was out to 'get' them. I think they wanted to go abroad but there were passport issues preventing this. To them they had no options, other than to go off grid. In their minds I think it is possible that they had done little wrong. I think there is a huge part of the story that we have not been told. The jury has heard all the evidence, unlike us web sleuths and given the lack of evidence and gaps in the story, I am not at all surprised that the jury are unable to reach a decision.
 
crespo29 said:
I can understand your frustration and anger at the death of a baby. What you say may be true of a rational sane person. From what I understand from the defence arguments is that Martin and Gordon were paranoid that someone was out to 'get' them. I think they wanted to go abroad but there were passport issues preventing this. To them they had no options, other than to go off grid. In their minds I think it is possible that they had done little wrong. I think there is a huge part of the story that we have not been told. The jury has heard all the evidence, unlike us web sleuths and given the lack of evidence and gaps in the story, I am not at all surprised that the jury are unable to reach a decision.
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Paranoia is not a criminal defence though, and at no point has the defence argued that either CM or MG are paranoid or suffering with any type of mental illness that might mitigate their actions.

Indeed, the jury have instead been invited to accept as fact such things as cars being detonated and secret High Court proceedings to remove passports (something that is only done where national security is involved).

JMO, but I believe that it wasn't CM's passport that was revoked as such. I think it was instead, the older childrens' passports that were removed by court order after she fled with them/attempted to flee with them to Ireland in a previous attempt to foil SS. That's nothing to do with her passport though.

Pulmonary embolism due to exogenous estrogen intoxication - PubMed
 
BreadnLumpit said:
Paranoia is not a criminal defence though, and at no point has the defence argued that either CM or MG are paranoid or suffering with any type of mental illness that might mitigate their actions.

Indeed, the jury have instead been invited to accept as fact such things as cars being detonated and secret High Court proceedings to remove passports (something that is only done where national security is involved).

JMO, but I believe that it wasn't CM's passport that was revoked as such. I think it was instead, the older childrens' passports that were removed by court order after she fled with them/attempted to flee with them to Ireland in a previous attempt to foil SS. That's nothing to do with her passport though.

Pulmonary embolism due to exogenous estrogen intoxication - PubMed
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Hmmm, I think it is necessary to view on a case by case basis. The Defence as I remember, was trying to explain why they acted as they did. Regarding the passports, I think there was some doubt if Gordon had a passport and Marten's was lost in the car fire.
I know that I have been arguing on this thread from an unpopular viewpoint, but I think bringing this case to court has been a shambles since the beginning. The Prosecution, imo, did not convince during the trial. There are other criticisms that I could make but probably best to leave it for now.
 
BreadnLumpit said:
Paranoia is not a criminal defence though, and at no point has the defence argued that either CM or MG are paranoid or suffering with any type of mental illness that might mitigate their actions.

Indeed, the jury have instead been invited to accept as fact such things as cars being detonated and secret High Court proceedings to remove passports (something that is only done where national security is involved).

JMO, but I believe that it wasn't CM's passport that was revoked as such. I think it was instead, the older childrens' passports that were removed by court order after she fled with them/attempted to flee with them to Ireland in a previous attempt to foil SS. That's nothing to do with her passport though.

Pulmonary embolism due to exogenous estrogen intoxication - PubMed
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Apologies for the random link that seems to have leaked from a post I made about a completely different trial :eek::oops:o_O
 
Jury in at 9am tomorrow - I guess that's to clear the Court for the continuation of sentencing for Fiona Beal at 10am.




The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court


Daily Courtroom List for Thursday 30 May 2024​
FINAL 1​
Court 5 - sitting at 09:00 am

THE RECORDER OF LONDON​



Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104GORDON Mark A01MP1072723SUSWMCPS
MARTEN Constance01MP1072723

DTA, , Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981


www.courtserve.net
 
Obergine said:
So, today's million dollar question. Will we get a verdict on Trump before a verdict on Victoria?
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I haven't been much interested in Trump's Stormy trial in Manhattan, but for some reason I dreamt of it last night and there was a hung jury split 6-5.
 
To judge from what's at thelawpages.com, it seems the jury haven't resumed their deliberations today and nor did they deliberate yesterday afternoon either.
 
1 hour ago

Jury resumes deliberations​

The jury has resumed its deliberations in the Old Bailey trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon who deny manslaughter by gross negligence of their baby daughter Victoria after weeks on the run.


Holly Evans 30 May 2024 11:13


www.independent.co.uk

Constance Marten trial: Jury retires to consider verdict in baby manslaughter case

Aristocrat and partner Mark Gordon denied killing their newborn Victoria while on the run from authorities
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
 
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