UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[Nikynoo]

I totally agree. The burning car wasn't in the first police appeals, that was something people online figured out. Only after that was the burning car confirmed by police.

A female officer also made several appeals to CM in particular, talking only about medical and safety concerns for baby and CM and trying to encourage them to come forward for medical checks. That's when I saw some people online saying "it's none of the police's business where or how she gave birth" and "if SHE had any concerns about baby's health then SURELY she would see a doctor THEREFORE she and baby are fine and police and SS should leave the family alone"

Police then put out a statement that they were not seeking to break up the family unit, that they just wanted health checks to ensure baby was okay.

But there was a public perception that police were treating this like a 'manhunt', and I think that's true in some ways, but from that perhaps people felt the couple were being treated as criminals, when all the public knew was that CM gave birth outside of a hospital. People even assumed she probably had a doula or someone similar with her, or they felt that women have given birth unaided for thousands of years and that, in itself, is not a crime...true enough. But I think most people felt that could not be the sole reason that police wanted to find the family and get baby, at the least, seen by a doctor. From that point, then the family could have stopped being 'on the run' and got the baby into a proper home with proper hygiene, warmth etc.

IMO this has always been about finding the baby and removing the baby from its parents, and that is why they continued running.

 

[wizardizzo76]

I think they'd be more likely to give someone who they considered a kindred spirit (distrust of SS) money to look after baby than to sell the baby.

IMO the presence of an evangelical Church on the other side of the area they are looking in is the only likely scenario in which this little one is safe, to be honest. But if they were being helped by them, then I can't imagine they would be sleeping outside and using food banks.

 

[Amonet]

IMO this has always been about finding the baby and removing the baby from its parents, and that is why they continued running.

I think that was their reason for running, and I think they probably had good reasons for thinking that would happen.

I have no idea of whether an alternative solution for baby could have been worked out whereby CM, or both, still had care/custody,

 

[iamshadow21]

Somewhere else it says tinned pasta and rice (I'm assuming rice pudding, which is the no 1 food requested by food banks, apparently).

So, like, spaghetti hoops and creamed rice. Nicer warm, but perfectly edible from the tin with a spoon, no stove, microwave, or campfire required.

 

[infinit]

So, like, spaghetti hoops and creamed rice. Nicer warm, but perfectly edible from the tin with a spoon, no stove, microwave, or campfire required.

Pretty much anything that is edible will taste nice enough at a certain point of hunger.

 

[Nikynoo]

I think that was their reason for running, and I think they probably had good reasons for thinking that would happen.

I have no idea of whether an alternative solution for baby could have been worked out whereby CM, or both, still had care/custody,

IMO unlikely. iF SS had found out C was pregnant then they would have applied for a removal order before the baby was born. Once born the baby would be removed immediately. I suspect this is why she kept the pregnancy hidden. I also think a lot of planning went into who they thought this would play out and whether there was a plan B in place. Another poster opined that they were probably trying to get to Ireland but the car fire scuppered that.

 

[Leannaf2721]

How did they move from Liverpool to Harwich? Just looking at this timeline and why did they go from Bolton back to London? There must of been a plan to their travelling surely

 

[Leannaf2721]

How did they move from Liverpool to Harwich? Just looking at this timeline and why did they go from Bolton back to London? There must of been a plan to their travelling surely

Sorry forgot link Mapped: What we know about Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s runaway journey

 

[iamshadow21]

Pretty much anything that is edible will taste nice enough at a certain point of hunger.

Yeah, I agree, but I meant, if they gave you dried rice or pasta, you'd need a heat source, potable water, and a pan or pot to heat the water in to cook it. Out here, it'd be called a billy, a pot with a bucket handle, which you'd hook onto a frame that you'd make with strong greenwood branches over a fire. (Hello, fellow former Brownies/Guides.)

Tinned COOKED foods are basically MREs. You don't even need a tin opener these days; most things are ringpull.

 

[infinit]

How did they move from Liverpool to Harwich? Just looking at this timeline and why did they go from Bolton back to London? There must of been a plan to their travelling surely

Taxi.

And I assume they were trying different ports and seeing if they could find a weak spot in the security, but that's just my guess.

 

[lvbut]

Who referred them to the food bank?
Community groceries are different, anyone can use them but in my experience FBs you need a referral for?

We have food bank-style places near me that don’t need referrals. You can just turn up and get stuff. I’ve volunteered a few times.

 

[lvbut]

I hate to even think this, but given that nobody seems to have seen a baby, can the possibility of a multiple birth be completely ruled out? I guess they would need to be 100% sure that there was only ever one placenta and that it was in good enough condition to be able to rule out e.g. monochorionic twins?

Just my own thought

Gosh, I hadn’t even thought of that. I don’t think that’s the case… I’m no expert but giving birth to twins feels like something you wouldn’t be able to do in the back of a car before wandering off into the woods. Baffling all ‘round.

 

[lvbut]

I sincerely doubt the baby has been given to anyone, far more likely the baby was born addicted to whatever substances have been used during pregnancy and died because they have t been bothered to get the medical help it needed. Scumbags both of them….throw away the key.

Just MOO but I don’t think drugs are at play here. Not sure why, I just don’t.

 

[Telltale]

IMO unlikely. iF SS had found out C was pregnant then they would have applied for a removal order before the baby was born. Once born the baby would be removed immediately. I suspect this is why she kept the pregnancy hidden. I also think a lot of planning went into who they thought this would play out and whether there was a plan B in place. Another poster opined that they were probably trying to get to Ireland but the car fire scuppered that.

If they were trying to get to Ireland, it's a bit odd they then turned up at an Essex port which is down south on the opposite coast. Not having a car would be a setback, but it's not like they couldn't get on a ferry without one. Certainly easier (and closer from the M61) to try for NI ferry without a passport than getting to mainland Europe without one.

Tbh I don't think they were trying to get out the country, they had access to money and this plan seemed to go into motion months before the car fire, when she was early in her pregnancy. Him not having a passport would be an issue, but still, getting out the country would have been vastly easier before she gave birth, when any registration of a baby to get it a passport could flag social services. Why wait for months moving around various flats?

I think CM could have easily left the country, but MG couldn't and she wouldn't go without him. So their plan was to stay in the UK but as under the radar as possible and make themselves difficult to track - hoping that SS didn't cotton on to them having a new child.

It seems they were isolated enough from former friends and family that it could have worked for a while. Especially if they planned to keep the child away from any potential reporting or registering agencies. I imagine it would have fallen apart again in a few years when the child would need to go to school or needed for medical care or someone new reported concerns etc.

I also don't know how that would have worked if MG is on parol (he only did 20 of a 40 year sentence) and a registered SO in the UK, I imagine he had to report his address whenever he moved. No word on whether they were doing that but I am guessing they weren't once they started moving to various flats.

 

[infinit]

I hate to even think this, but given that nobody seems to have seen a baby, can the possibility of a multiple birth be completely ruled out? I guess they would need to be 100% sure that there was only ever one placenta and that it was in good enough condition to be able to rule out e.g. monochorionic twins?

Just my own thought

I did a Google search and I think it's pretty obvious from the placenta vascularity etc if there were monochorionic twins

 

[rockthecasbah]

If they were trying to get to Ireland, it's a bit odd they then turned up at an Essex port which is down south on the opposite coast. Not having a car would be a setback, but it's not like they couldn't get on a ferry without one. Certainly easier (and closer from the M61) to try for NI ferry without a passport than getting to mainland Europe without one.

Tbh I don't think they were trying to get out the country, they had access to money and this plan seemed to go into motion months before the car fire, when she was early in her pregnancy. Him not having a passport would be an issue, but still, getting out the country would have been vastly easier before she gave birth, when any registration of a baby to get it a passport could flag social services. Why wait for months moving around various flats?

I think CM could have easily left the country, but MG couldn't and she wouldn't go without him. So their plan was to stay in the UK but as under the radar as possible and make themselves difficult to track - hoping that SS didn't cotton on to them having a new child.

It seems they were isolated enough from former friends and family that it could have worked for a while. Especially if they planned to keep the child away from any potential reporting or registering agencies. I imagine it would have fallen apart again in a few years when the child would need to go to school or needed for medical care or someone new reported concerns etc.

I also don't know how that would have worked if MG is on parol (he only did 20 of a 40 year sentence) and a registered SO in the UK, I imagine he had to report his address whenever he moved. No word on whether they were doing that but I am guessing they weren't once they started moving to various flats.

One of the articles mentioned her passport was found in the car.

 

[jackal67]

If we assume that one or both of them have MH issues would LE have had them assessed before interviewing them? Also Constance would need a medical assessment having given birth recently. I imagine that neither of them would be in the best of health of they have been living outside for weeks. JMO

 

[irnbru]

If we assume that one or both of them have MH issues would LE have had them assessed before interviewing them? Also Constance would need a medical assessment having given birth recently. I imagine that neither of them would be in the best of health of they have been living outside for weeks. JMO

There will be MH liasion at custody suites who can give an initial opinion on fitness for interview/ need for a MHAct assessment etc

 

[wizardizzo76]

Just MOO but I don’t think drugs are at play here. Not sure why, I just don’t.

Just the simple fact that it is impossible to go off the radar completely if you are hooked on something. You'd have to keep finding dealers, so talking to people and making connections and there aren't that many in the woods

 

[Rosiebones]

It seems like all they would have to do is a DNA test on her bra or blouse and see if the baby's DNA is there or even her skin.That would establish the sex of the child and its presence. MOO MOO MOO