GUILTY UK - Eleanor Williams, 19, from Barrow, made false sex trafficking and abuse claims, May 2020

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Cluedoneit said:
I think you are correct in part, in my opinion she has a severe personality disorder at a minimum and requires intense treatment in a secure psychiatric unit after her sentence for as long as it takes for her no longer to be a danger to the public as well as herself. I have no doubts that she’ll return to the courts in a few years having accused prison workers of abuse or being in cahoots with the fictIonal gang. It is likely in my opinion that this was created due to the childhood trauma mentioned by the judge in his remarks.

www.cambridge.org

Abuse and Neglect in Childhood: Relationship to Personality Disorder Diagnoses | CNS Spectrums | Cambridge Core

Abuse and Neglect in Childhood: Relationship to Personality Disorder Diagnoses - Volume 8 Issue 10
www.cambridge.org www.cambridge.org
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I agree (re: some sort of personality disorder) but I find a lot of posts here are too forgiving of her conduct, which appears to have been calculated, deliberate and sustained over a long period of time. She has destroyed and has attempted to destroy people's lives with false allegations. This may have started out as a form of attention seeking behaviour, in the wake of the news coverage on grooming scandals where there was a strong focus on the need to believe victims in the absence of evidence. Her claims, had they not been so outlandish and easy to disprove, may well have resulted in innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

Also, personality disorders don't mean the person has no conscious control over what they're doing. Narcissists, for example, know exactly what they're doing and what they hope to gain from their actions. You're not going to teach a malignant narcissist how to have empathy for others by sending them to therapy and "treating" them.

The lengthy prison sentence is appropriate in such cases because it is a "deterrent" against those who seek to undermine the justice system with false allegations of criminality. It also undermines genuine cases.
 
Cluedoneit said:
I have no doubts that she’ll return to the courts in a few years having accused prison workers of abuse or being in cahoots with the fictIonal gang.
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I have a feeling her insistence that her claims were true and her attempts to fabricate evidence were all self-serving. i.e. to get her off the hook. It's interesting that the medical "expert" offering an opinion (from her side) would only go so far as saying she had PTSD, rather than some form of psychosis (which would be the only mental illness that might have led to the act of making false allegations in a way that was "out of her control").
 
Imo, Some people are just mean and evil. I think mental illness is used too much as a mitigating circumstance, or a get out of jail free card. Imo, Eleanor can't be helped not matter how much mental health treatment she receives. All JMO of course.
 
PoirotPink said:
I agree (re: some sort of personality disorder) but I find a lot of posts here are too forgiving of her conduct, which appears to have been calculated, deliberate and sustained over a long period of time. She has destroyed and has attempted to destroy people's lives with false allegations. This may have started out as a form of attention seeking behaviour, in the wake of the news coverage on grooming scandals where there was a strong focus on the need to believe victims in the absence of evidence. Her claims, had they not been so outlandish and easy to disprove, may well have resulted in innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

Also, personality disorders don't mean the person has no conscious control over what they're doing. Narcissists, for example, know exactly what they're doing and what they hope to gain from their actions. You're not going to teach a malignant narcissist how to have empathy for others by sending them to therapy and "treating" them.

The lengthy prison sentence is appropriate in such cases because it is a "deterrent" against those who seek to undermine the justice system with false allegations of criminality. It also undermines genuine cases.
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I definitely don’t think her personality disorder should allow her to escape her sentence btw. I want her in a secure unit after her 8 years are up, sorry for not making it clear. Having met someone with diagnosed anti-social personality disorder once and saw first hand the damage they caused people and the number of crimes they managed to rack up in the 4 years I knew them ( they also self harmed quite severely for attention and monetary gain),I think Ellie should never go free if I’m honest as she’ll always be a danger to herself and those around her. Obviously just my opinion, I’m definitely not a doctor or mental health professional.
 
PoirotPink said:
I have a feeling her insistence that her claims were true and her attempts to fabricate evidence were all self-serving. i.e. to get her off the hook. It's interesting that the medical "expert" offering an opinion (from her side) would only go so far as saying she had PTSD, rather than some form of psychosis (which would be the only mental illness that might have led to the act of making false allegations in a way that was "out of her control").
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Sorry to be picky but she actually diagnosed complex PTSD (interestingly, one of EW's victims is also claiming to have the same diagnosis here, but the point of the link is to evidence the defence psychiatrist who assessed EW and what she said).

Barrow men falsely accused of raping Eleanor Williams tell court they tried to kill themselves

Unhelpfully, PTSD and cPTSD aren't really used interchangeably despite looking as though they ought to be:

PTSD vs C-PTSD: What’s the Difference?

(I'm not sure why you're calling her an "expert" btw. She's a consultant forensic psychiatrist with a specialism in mental health law, which does literally make her an expert. It's OK to disagree with her without negating her expertise - the prosecution expert did, after all.)

I agree EW hasn't seemed to show any form of psychosis from what we know (which tbf probably isn't a huge percentage of what there is to know) but disagree that that's the only possible cause of malicious accusations outwith her control. She might, for example, have a dissociative disorder. I don't know that, or even think that necessarily, just that it could plausibly be an extension of trauma-induced cPTSD, for example, thinking of the stated history of childhood trauma (mentioned in the Guardian link and in the judge's summing up).

Dissociative Disorder vs. Schizophrenia: What Are the Differences?

Anyway, I don't intend to be a psychiatry bore on the thread but if people want to discuss the mental health context then it just seemed like it would be good to define some terms.

And once again, to be clear, I also accept and appreciate that her victims have been through a horrendous, long-drawn-out ordeal of a legal process, and that she needs to be held accountable for that.

All JMO apart from links.
 
JuicyLucy said:
<rsbm>

I'm not Verified for my medical background so this can only be my personal opinion of course, but I don't think you take heavy tools to yourself without some kind of psychiatric diagnosis and cPTSD, at the very least, sounds spot on to me. There is also a strong link between self-harm and childhood sexual abuse, for which you don't have to rely on my opinion, as there's lots of evidence. She may not be these men's victim, but she is someone's imo. I feel sorry for her, as well as for her victims too obviously - I don't feel the need to pick a side. I think this started as a cry for help and got totally and catastrophically out of hand because her grip on reality is tenuous (JMO). I don't think prison is the answer for a defendant like that.

APA PsycNet

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1354850021000059278

Repeat deliberate self-harm: a link with childhood sexual abuse? | Emergency Medicine Journal

(plus myriad other studies as any google search will reveal.)
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Respectfully, the type of self-harm seen in complex PTSD is for the purpose of emotional release, not to frame others for having harmed you. I didn't do a deep dive into this case and even if I had, it would be inappropriate for me to diagnoses this woman without meeting her, so I won't. But I will say that people who will endure high levels of pain in order to seek attention and/or revenge by setting someone else up for having harmed them, usually suffer from a personality disorder. Sometimes, PTSD is part of the picture, but sometimes it's not. And, of course, with personality disorders comes the age old debate of nature vs nurture. Without knowing more about her, I don't think it's possible for any of us to say. I would be shocked, though, if she doesn't meet criteria for a cluster B personality disorder.
 
On the MH discussion. I think we all agree it's abundantly clear she has not been displaying "normal" behaviour.

As someone who has been told wildly different things by different consultant psychiatrists (Previously diagnosed with depression and anxiety, then changed to BPD, then changed to CPTSD), I personally take labels with a heavy pinch of salt. BPD itself seems to have a strong correlation with childhood trauma and the symptoms overlap so much with CPTSD I dread to think about the amount of misdiagnosis that is going on (particularly scary if you're misdiagnosed with BPD given if you're diagnosed with a personality disorder you are heavily discriminated against by the NHS, as I found out before being re-diagnosed)

If she was self harming as a child I would be curious if she'd had any interaction with CAMHS and what their view had been.

I have no clue as to what she does or doesn't have. I think the sentence is broadly fair considering the multiple victims personally. But I do hope she's given the treatment needed to deal with whatever, to get to the point she's not self harming and to stop these maladaptive behaviours that are impacting others so greatly.

JMO
 
BeginnerSleuther said:
Respectfully, the type of self-harm seen in complex PTSD is for the purpose of emotional release, not to frame others for having harmed you. I didn't do a deep dive into this case and even if I had, it would be inappropriate for me to diagnoses this woman without meeting her, so I won't. But I will say that people who will endure high levels of pain in order to seek attention and/or revenge by setting someone else up for having harmed them, usually suffer from a personality disorder. Sometimes, PTSD is part of the picture, but sometimes it's not. And, of course, with personality disorders comes the age old debate of nature vs nurture. Without knowing more about her, I don't think it's possible for any of us to say. I would be shocked, though, if she doesn't meet criteria for a cluster B personality disorder.
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I agree with you that it's more complicated than a classic self-harm picture, but I also think it's hard to ignore the level of self-hatred that imo underpins self-mutilation on this scale. I suspect a big part of the key to understanding EW would be to know what's in the social services files that the defence psychiatrist alluded to (link below). I find it hard to believe that what they discuss would be attributable to "nature". For myself, I don't see personality disorder written all over her as you do but ofc I've never met her either. I find her fascinating though.

Barrow men falsely accused of raping Eleanor Williams tell court they tried to kill themselves

JMO
 
JuicyLucy said:
I agree with you that it's more complicated than a classic self-harm picture, but I also think it's hard to ignore the level of self-hatred that imo underpins self-mutilation on this scale. I suspect a big part of the key to understanding EW would be to know what's in the social services files that the defence psychiatrist alluded to (link below). I find it hard to believe that what they discuss would be attributable to "nature". For myself, I don't see personality disorder written all over her as you do but ofc I've never met her either. I find her fascinating though.

Barrow men falsely accused of raping Eleanor Williams tell court they tried to kill themselves

JMO
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I'm curious as to what is there, because the fact they didn't decide to use it as mitigation makes it seem like it wasn't particularly significant (not that I'm saying other stuff couldn't potentially have gone on that social services weren't aware of.)

I think it's visibility quite shocking "self harm" but personally I see it as quite calculated (I guess you could argue most self harm is to an extent.) With her fair skin I don't actually think she'd need to hit herself that hard to get a peach of a bruise. Particularly on the face. I wouldn't be surprised if it was achieved by multiple "softer" strikes than 1 or 2 big hits. It's not something that is going to leave permanent damage or scarring. If she'd used the claw side of the hammer with some force she could have done some serious damage.

To me it has been done with the intent to give weight to her story rather than there being any "typical" SH rationale behind it with the prominent placement, the awkwardness of striking yourself there, her willingness to "show it off" etc.

What confuses me is what on earth is going on her head where this whole thing was something she wanted to do.

JMO.
 
badgersmythe said:
www.dailymail.co.uk

Sister of fantasist WON'T accept that sibling spun lies about rape

Eleanor Williams, 22, was jailed for eight-and-a-half years at Preston Crown Court on Monday for perverting the course of justice after spinning lies about being raped and beaten.
www.dailymail.co.uk
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I'd be curious if the situation with the guy the previous weekend (not a pleasant experience) is what gave her the "inspiration" for it all. Perhaps she got attention and sympathy from it after that she realised she liked and wanted to take it further. I'm not sure how it fits into the timeline of if the 1st allegation was the following weekend or if there had been others before.

JMO.
 
I'm sorry, but a personality disorder like BPD/EUPD (hate that term) which I'm almost certain she's going to be labelled with (maybe alongside other MH problems, but BPD is the most contentious) does not turn someone into a scheming liar who ruins peoples' lives, leading them to almost killing themselves and for a whole community to hate them with lingering doubt even after the accuser is proven guilty.

Everything she did, she did with purpose -- she did it with malice -- she did it with an attention-seeking need.
 
I hope people can take away from this that they should exercise caution when reading things online.
I get that people were seeing red but there were red flags from the get go. The “Asian trafficking gang” trope, and the fact that not a single victim was coming forward. Plus, seemingly this was happening for years and years and no one in her family noticed injuries or were concerned when she went missing for weeks at a time. This should have made people at least a little cautious, at least to decide to wait for more info IMO
 
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