UK UK - Glenis Carruthers, 20, Clifton, Bristol, 19 Jan 1974

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by wfgodot, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    While the case of Glenis Carruthers, 20, found dead in Bristol in January 1974 has been in the news of late because of its similarities to the recent murder of Joanna Yeates, of Clifton, Bristol, whose body was found on Christmas Day, 2010, the cold case investigation into Ms. Carruthers's death was actually launched eleven months before, in January 2010.

    From the Avon and Somerset Constabulary website:

    The night Glenis Carruthers was murdered
    ---
    On 19th January 1974 Glenis Carruthers travelled from Bedford, where she was a student, to attend a friend's 21st Birthday party on Worcester Crescent in Clifton, Bristol.

    At around 10.20pm Glenis left the party, possibly to get some fresh air or to make a call from a telephone Kiosk, situated nearby.

    Just after 11.00pm there was a sighting of Glenis on the Clifton Downs. The witness thought he saw a courting couple on the grass. A short time after her body was discovered. She had been strangled to death.

    The witness described the man as white, between 20 to 25 years old; around 5ft 10inches tall in height, medium build, with brown shoulder length hair. He was wearing a three-quarter length coat and a denim type cap.

    At the time of the murder 175 officers assisted the investigation and more than 16,000 people were interviewed, however no information was obtained to identify the offender.
    ---

    http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/newsroom/special_appeals/glenis-carruthers/

    The Possible Connection with the Death of Joanna Yeates

    Detectives are investigating the possibility that Miss Yeates’s killer could also have throttled Glenis Carruthers, 20, who was murdered in 1974 after leaving a party just 350 yards from where Miss Yeates lived.

    A cold case review team set up last year to reinvestigate Miss Carruthers’ murder is liaising closely with officers in the Joanna Yeates inquiry after identifying a series of striking similarities between the two killings.

    Both women had been strangled, were found fully-clothed and had not been sexually assaulted. Both women also appeared to have died quickly without being able to put up a struggle, and in both cases the victims were found without shoes on.

    In each case the crime appeared to be motiveless, the victims were a similar age and were attacked at a similar time of night.
    ---
    more here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-of-1974-victim-say-killer-could-be-same.html

    Whether or not the two crimes are related, it is hoped that the spotlight shone on Glenis Carruthers's case because of its similarities with that of Joanna Yeates will help produce a solution after these many years.

    Posts and links relevant to the Carruthers case are invited.
     
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  3. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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  4. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    Yeates case is not linked to 1974 Bedford student murder

    http://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/News/Yeates-case-is-not-linked-to-1974-Bedford-student-murder.htm

    Well - perhaps. Another link, one would imagine, is that of right now, the constabulary has been unable to solve either.
     
  5. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    Unsolved Clifton murder case could hold key to finding Joanna Yeates killer


    much more at
    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...EY-MURDER/article-3079022-detail/article.html
     
  6. Pisces Cloud

    Pisces Cloud Member

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    I have wondered why Glenis wandered half a mile from the party on a cold winter's night in just a pair of sandals, with reduced lighting due to power cuts. If it was to go to the phone box then what could have that been about?

    There's an original news article here which mentions what the suspect was wearing and it also says his age was between 20-30 which differs from more recent reports.

    Also, with regards to other similar murders. Three more have been spotted which are quite similar.

    Sandra Court

    Michelle Bettles


    Lindsay Rimer

    I also came across this in an Old Cliftonian magazine with regards to Iwerne holidays which might have connections to both Norfolk and Dorset through Gresham's and Clayesmore schools.

     
  7. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    Thanks Pisces Cloud. Excellent info, terrifc links, great post.

    Especially interesting seeing the '74 Evening Times article, from 37 years ago today.
     
  8. Pisces Cloud

    Pisces Cloud Member

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    Perhaps that is a sign. Anyway, it's also interesting to note that two of the murders were around an holiday period too. Easter weekend 2002 and May bank holiday weekend 1986. There's also another coincidence of there being 8 years between the murders starting from Sandra.
     
  9. Pisces Cloud

    Pisces Cloud Member

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    I would also be interesting to see who was actually at that party back 1974.
     
  10. MMENJBRIT

    MMENJBRIT New Member

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    Pisces Cloud

    I would also be interesting to see who was actually at that party back 1974.

    Hi Pisces, I have often thought this myself... But the party was for Hardyman's (resi at JY block of flats) neice. Hardyman is an ex teacher at the Clifton school that LL worked at. To me this is WAY too big of a coincidence...Is it almost as if someone somewhere wants to keep this all 'under wraps'. Why I wonder? could someone from L/E have some kind of a connection? Wild thought, but just SO many unsolved murders makes ya wonder.
     
  11. Pisces Cloud

    Pisces Cloud Member

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    There does seem to be a bit of an Old Cliftonian clique in place and I wouldn't be surprised if the killer did have something on others. If he is from one of those two buildings, that is. Perhaps along similar lines to the guy who lived in the JY flat beforehand. I'd really like to dig around and see if someone connected to the college was around in other areas when similar murders occurred. Either through Iwerne Holidays or due to some sort of school sport competitions.
     
  12. MMENJBRIT

    MMENJBRIT New Member

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    INVESIGATION INTO A&S CONSTABULORY

    Based on what we have read so far with the JY murder investigation, but more so the previous unsolved murders in the Bristol /Bath and surrounding area, wouldn't this be cause for the Police Commission in the UK to open up a review and investigation of this force and it's employees?
     
  13. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    Not sure I know enough to comment on that question (though lack of knowledge has never stopped me from commenting before!). Yes, there are unsolved murders - but, compared to other areas of England, does the Bristol constabulary have a significantly higher amount? From where I sit (in Oklahoma, where much goes unresolved), the constabulary looks like the model of efficiency as an enforcement unit, even given the apparent fumble of the CJ arrest and the possibility that the VT charges might not stand.

    On the other hand, the lack of solving particularly the Glenis murder does point to something I can't quite pinpoint - the case has a certain je ne sais quoi, as if the perpetrator were in fact known, but went unarrested for some odious reason or another.
     
  14. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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  15. aneurin

    aneurin New Member

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    As far as unsolved murders go in the UK I did find this report here;

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...reveals-the-UK-has-1143-unsolved-murders.html

    As you can see, the Metropolitan Police have the most unsolved murders at 341, and that's only since 1996. On that basis Avon and Somerset only have 5 unsolveds. The disparity is so great that I suspect it must be the case that A&SC have a better murder clear up rate than the Met. To try and put some perspective on the numbers, I did find some statistics relating to the size of UK police forces in 2004 at this link;

    http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-02-02c.75.7

    This shows Avon and Somerset with a population of 1,519,119 and the Met at 7,420,617. So the Met covers 5 times the population that A&SC covers, but has 68 times as many unsolved murders. A&SC also have fewer unsolveds than the West Midlands and Greater Manchester forces taking the relative population into account.

    I also found this news report regarding the situation in the USA;

    http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/

    Every year there are 6,000 unsolved murders in the USA, which is about 20 per million of the population and roughly twenty times the UK incidence.

    I'd therefore conclude that A&SC are by no means the worst performing police force in the UK and that their murder clear up rate is probably better than every single police authority in the United States of America.
     
  16. aneurin

    aneurin New Member

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    Regarding the connection with the Jo Yeates case.

    Whilst Glenis's shoes, or sandals to be pedantic, weren't on her feet, they were found "close to her body". So that's actually a point of difference with the Yates case rather than a similarity. And to be honest with you, I'd imagine that if you grabbed any woman from behind, pulled her to the ground and throttled her to death, then her footwear would come off her feet in the brief struggle and end up somewhere nearby.

    Glenis was murdered in a public area, virtually under the nose of a witness. Joanna (as far as we can tell at the moment) was murdered in private, away from prying eyes, and then secretly dumped elsewhere, whilst Glenis was left to lie where she was.

    Glenis wasn't from Bristol, but Buckinghamshire and at college in Bedford, and was only in Bristol to attend the birthday party. It's therefore unlikely that she knew anybody much in Bristol other than her fellow party guests, and once you've eliminated them from inquiries, you'd have to conclude that it was likely she didn't know her attacker.

    I've argued before (in one of the Yeates threads) that it's unlikely from a pure actuarial point of view that two murders that took place 37 years apart were committed by the same person. Unlikely, but not impossible. Glenis's killer could have been in his early twenties (or perhaps younger). That would make them in their late 50s early 60s in 2010, and you can't rule out someone of that age being sufficiently fit and healthy to do it all over again. (But you might well wonder what they'd been up to in the intervening years.) Of course the witness did put the suspect's age at between 20 to 25 years old. But then again, "I could not see the man very well as it was quite dark and a mass of hair hid his face", so it's likely the age range is a pure guess based on the fact that the suspect had long hair and wore a "denim-type coat" and doesn't mean much at all.

    I'd say that Glenis's murder looks like a blitz attack by a stranger, and quite unconnected with the Jo Yeates case.
     
  17. Pisces Cloud

    Pisces Cloud Member

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    I personally think something happened at the party for Glenis to have wandered half a mile from there on a January night in just a pair of sandals. It was also darker than usual too, because of the power cuts. The police have speculated that she might have been heading for the phone box. What happened for her to want to do that and not use the house phone? Was she going to phone for someone to come and take her home? So, I wouldn't rule out anyone at the party from being involved. It is also quite feasible that the killer's been active elsewhere in the intervening years, and once he learned that Joanna would be alone that night he spotted an opportunity that was too good for him to miss. Only after did it really dawn on him that he might have implicated himself.
     
  18. aneurin

    aneurin New Member

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    Since home appears to have been in Bedford some 150 miles away, possibly not, given the lateness of the hour. The belief appears to be that she left the party because she was annoyed that there were no unattached men present. Perhaps she was then approached and propositioned by a stranger, declined his offer and proceeded to march purposefully in the direction of the telephone kiosk to report the incident, only to be grabbed from behind, pulled down and throttled to death before she could do so.


    No, but I imagine that A&SC did. I would expect that they took detailed statments from all the guests, and in particular checked whether any one of them matched the official description of the suspect as someone with "brown shoulder length hair" and "wearing a three-quarter length coat and a denim type cap". Besides from the look of things both Glenis and Sandra were pretty religious. In the context of UK social norms circa 1974, someone with long hair and a denim cap doesn't sound as if they'd quite fit in with that crowd.


    But as the A&SC source put it; "Nothing has been found to feed into the Yeates incident room". Which means that they've checked for any duplication of names in the two inquiries. It's also important to remember that 'proceedings are active' in the Yeates case. A man has been charged with that murder, and since he could not possibly have also killed Glenis, arguing that the cases are indeed connected and that therefore the individual concerned is innocent might well be construed as contempt of court.
     
  19. MMENJBRIT

    MMENJBRIT New Member

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    Pisces Cloud: and Aneurin


    It is also quite feasible that the killer's been active elsewhere in the intervening years, and once he learned that Joanna would be alone that night he spotted an opportunity that was too good for him to miss. Only after did it really dawn on him that he might have implicated himself.

    Pisces Cloud: We are thinking along the same lines.

    Aneuruin: To your point re: As the A&SC put - I see where you are coming from in your responses... but we are all aware of people wrongly convicted and at this point yes, many other sccenarios are possible including there being a plausible link to these two murders. L/E do not always get it right and the PERP who is the guilty party in this murder may be extremely cunning. It is ok for us all to retain open minds and to question what is and isn't a fact at this stage.
     
  20. aneurin

    aneurin New Member

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    I suspect that it comes down to the fact that there are those who believe that it is such a coincidence that two 'similar' murders occured within a few hundred yards of each other that, irrespective of the 37 year time difference, that they must be 'connected' in some way.

    Last year the same winning numbers were drawn twice in succession in the Israeli state lottery. The chances of that happening might appear to be astronomical, but given the number of state lotteries that are running, the chances of it happening in any lottery somehwere in the world in any given year are quite high. So much so, I expect, that it is the sort of thing you would expect to happen once every thirty years or so perhaps. Similarly given the number of murders that occur in the UK every year, there is a probability that one of them will bear some chance resemblance to an unsolved murder that took place nearby, and that it therefore might be a virtual certainty that it would happen once every fifty years or so. (A statitisican would no doubt be able to work it all out and quote some precise probabilities.)

    I quite accept that there a cases where the police (or LE if you prefer) get things wrong. But it would be a different thing all together to base a particular theory on the assumption that they must be wrong, particularly if you have no idea what it is they did wrong in the first place. A&SC have made it known that they think that there is no connection between the two cases. Since they actually have access to the relevant case files I'm inclined to take their word for it. As yet I've not seen any concrete information that says otherwise.
     
  21. MMENJBRIT

    MMENJBRIT New Member

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    Originally Posted by MMENJBRIT
    Aneuruin: To your point re: As the A&SC put - I see where you are coming from in your responses... but we are all aware of people wrongly convicted and at this point yes, many other sccenarios are possible including there being a plausible link to these two murders. L/E do not always get it right and the PERP who is the guilty party in this murder may be extremely cunning. It is ok for us all to retain open minds and to question what is and isn't a fact at this stage.

    Re: Aneurin
    I suspect that it comes down to the fact that there are those who believe that it is such a coincidence that two 'similar' murders occured within a few hundred yards of each other that, irrespective of the 37 year time difference, that they must be 'connected' in some way

    Hi Aneurin: I was thinking along the lines that a murderer could have gone undetected for 37 years due to his cunning and being a 'respectable' person that L/E would never suspect. It is just such an obvious link. The perp knows the area, knows people's comings and goings and is a master of disguise. Just my thoughts:)
     

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