UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

Discussion in 'Crimes-Spotlight on Children' started by sleuth777, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    Allitt lasted about a week in prison before she was declared to have a psychopathic disorder and moved to Rampton Hospital.

    I believe her minimum tariff is now trumped by her not presenting a risk to the community. So I believe she will be at the mercy of the medical experts.

    I doubt if she will ever be released.
     


  2. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    The Crown Prosecution Service will need to have authorised the charges after application of both the evidential test and public interest test.

    The 'let's give it a go and see what happens' scenario is not an available option.

    There must be a prima facie case based on the evidence that has been obtained.
     
  3. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    In terms of motive, if she is guilty, then her personal background should point the way, if it has been thoroughly investigated.
     
  4. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if she's had any psychiatric evaluations. I can't help but think a person capable of harming innocent babies must have psychopathic tendencies.

    It just doesn't make sense at this point because we really don't know what evidence there is against her.
     
  5. sleepyhead25

    sleepyhead25 Member

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    This is such a bizarre case.

    Part of me thinks, and hopes that she hasn’t done it and that she is becoming the scapegoat for the hospital trusts failings which they seem to admit themselves and that the increase in deaths is solely because of staffing issues etc. The fact there has been a number of big resignations since LL has been in the media focus shows that all was not well within the trust.

    Really interesting to read about people’s thoughts around motivation if she is proved to be guilty. I hadn’t been able to think of any kind of motive until coming back onto websleuths but seeking attention from the sickest of babies / playing the hero /comforting parents and or/ being seeing to put them babies out of their misery if she personally felt they were going to have very little quality of life makes sense.

    Wonder what triggered it if it did start suddenly - or if not - how she managed to keep a ‘lid’ on it before the killing spree of 2015/2016 - did she purposely not kill too many before this time not to arouse suspicion? Did she not have the opportunity? Or did something happen in her personal life that triggered ‘15/‘16 happening?

    Guilty or not the hospital took way too long to pick this up imo. They should have noticed the increased neonatal deaths sooner and requested toxicology reports on some of the babies to have died later to give a slightly clearer picture. I mean three babies passing in the space of a days when that was sometimes all they had for a year. Toxicology reports could have ruled foul play out surely?
     
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  6. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    If LL is found guilty then I feel that she will be shown to have a cluster B personality disorder, with all the inherent traits, including manipulative behaviours, deceit, lacking genuine empathy, lacking feelings of guilt, sadistic behaviours etc

    It may be that something occurred within her life that gave rise to feelings of extreme rejection or a loss of feeling in control. A quiet rage burned with a need for vengeance. Maybe she was passed over for promotion, disciplined, a relationship break-up or not being able to have children.

    Whatever the outcome it would appear that the working practices at the hospital left a lot to be desired and may well have contributed to the environment in which deaths and injury could occur.

    Senior NHS management have got away with criminal sanctions for appalling failures for far too long. It is a toxic organisation within the senior management structure.

    MOO of course
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  7. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Doesn’t work like that- they have to have a realistic prospect of a conviction which the CPS put As over 90% for it to be put before the Crown Court for trial
     
  8. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Good to see you back Whitehall x
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  9. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    Thank you Angleterre x
     
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  10. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Ok I will do my best to explain this as simply as I possibly can.
    When you are the
    SIO of an enquiry like this , it’s brought to your attention about some concerns regarding the initial deaths. So you take a look at it and you realise that it warrants further investigation than what originally intended. However, what you can’t do is go on what the DEFENCE call a ‘trawling expedition’ which is to go through her whole time of employment at this hospital and to try and fit anything that happened which had question marks around it , to the circumstances now surrounding the accused LETBY. So what you have to do is set out a terms of reference and a structured approach and choose a sample year that you will concentrate on ( usually the year where there has been most occurrences) and solely investigate that one years period . It can be extended buy you have to be careful to not, as I said before, go trawling for other incidents that fit what you currently are already aware of. It’s called unfair practices and personally, although I don’t agree, as the SIO, a time limited period to investigate is needed because as we have seen here , this investigation covers mainly a one year at a time period and it’s taken 3 years to gather sufficient evidence to put before a court but if you covered her whole employment period, if she is responsible for more, can you imagine how much more time the investigation would have taken and that in itself becomes a problem because as time goes on, witness memories fade etc But also wether we like it or not, it’s a cost factor and although this is the worst thing to ever happen in a lifetime to these babies families, it’s only one case for a Police force to investigate and they likely have many more and where does the funding come from? There isn’t an endless stream . Plus , once you reach a certain amount of provable charges against an alleged offender, it serves no further purpose (to the legal system and Police / Prosecution, albeit it does to the victims family if their child’s death or attempted , is not included in the list of charges brought against Letby ) in terms of the sentencing guidelines, as to what sentence she would get, there’s a cut off wether we are talking about 8 or 28 murders as you can only be sentenced to life in prison once .
    Does that help ? That’s trying to explain it in very simple terms.
     
  11. Stella8

    Stella8 Well-Known Member

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    I’m just catching up on the thread now...my first thoughts were did investigators pick up on fact that something was missing from the room/ ward that each incidence took place in - did each parent report that a piece of clothing or something belonging to them or their baby couldn’t be found?
     
  12. Sarahlou

    Sarahlou Well-Known Member

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    That would be pretty damn incriminating if they found 'souvenirs'
     
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  13. Supernovae

    Supernovae Active Member

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    Obviously, at a basic level they have to believe that they've got enough evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction. What I'm suggesting is that if they had a killer piece of evidence a year ago for a watertight case then they would have charged her sooner and if they didn't have that killer bit of evidence then, given the facts of this particular case, and barring a confession, it's unlikely to have suddenly materialised now. And crucially, it's unlikely to suddenly materialise at any point in the future. My suspicion is that the charging decision may have happened now, over two years since she was first arrested and 4- 5 years after the alleged offences, for precisely that reason. They've got no choice but to go with the case they've got, even if it's borderline and relatively circumstantial, or not charge her at all.
     
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  14. Supernovae

    Supernovae Active Member

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    Even with those limitations, it still seems like there's a risk of going back to the same well, and prosecutor's fallacy as outlined by Ben Goldacre, in the following article:

    Losing the lottery – Bad Science


     
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  15. Alyce

    Alyce Well-Known Member

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    The nurse looked tearful as she was denied bail.

    Susan, 60, and John Letby, 77, from Hereford, had been watching proceedings from a public gallery at Chester crown court.

    The court heard Letby’s trial is likely to take up to six months – and unlikely to happen until next summer.


    The case was adjourned until next week for legal submissions and then to February 19, 2021.




    'Baby killer' nurse mouths 'I love you' as she's denied bail and taken to cells
     
  16. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    I think it is important to understand that each offence being investigated must pass both stages of the CPS Full Code Test for a charge to be authorised. There is NOT an option to charge with an offence if the standards are not met.

    This is a complex enquiry with a number of serious incidents being investigated.

    The police have a remit to pursue all reasonable lines of enquiry. This not only means obtaining evidence that supports the arrested persons involvement in an offence but also gathering any evidence that may support the arrested persons innocence.

    Consider that remit to pursue ALL those reasonable lines of enquiry for both guilt and innocence. This will go a long way to explaining the long period of bail and the three instances of arrest.

    There is rarely a smoking gun. Painstaking detective work is the name of the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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  17. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Random thoughts.. speculation, imo, fwiw.

    It might be interesting to know if all/most of the babies, were of similar ethnicity/religion or not.

    Were the babies that died more inclined to have long term disabilities, than the other babies who were not in peril of dying( getting murdered)?

    Were the parents of the deceased babies, considered more "high maintenance" while their babies were still alive? ( The nurse in Ontario who murdered many senior citizens targeted the patients she considered "annoying/problematic/demanding")

    Crazy thought, but were the babies that died all delivered by the same (male perhaps) doctor? ie.
    misdirected revenge?
     
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  18. Stella8

    Stella8 Well-Known Member

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    One thought I had was were they all suffering from Sepsis - it can develop quickly after birth and there’s an increased risk if the baby is premature. I’m interested in the “unusual mottling” of the skin the babies had but I notice that it’s reported a little differently from one media outlet to the other, for example The Sun says the mottling was noticed “after resuscitation” but The Daily Fail says it was after the babies died. It reads like either way the rash wasn’t present before tragic events played out and if so, that is very odd.
     
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  19. Rosegold68

    Rosegold68 Well-Known Member

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    so many questions wondering if she was somehow acting as an 'angel of mercy' type, or if there was a reason to tie in with her disordered thinking

    when males murder we NEVER think this

    i'm wondering if she was just plain nasty, evil,twisted....a monster....like we instantly label male killers of children

    this is my own opinion
     
  20. Sarahlou

    Sarahlou Well-Known Member

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    I think people tend to think that because these types of killings are very unusual and different (imo) If it was a male nurse I'd be wondering the same about them. I'd really like to know what made her do this (if she is guilty)
     
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