UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

Discussion in 'Crimes-Spotlight on Children' started by sleuth777, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. JosieJo

    JosieJo Well-Known Member

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    At the moment if guilty and without any evidence available as yet obviously..I'm going for the munchausan by proxy theory ...enjoyed the drama of the collapse and involment in the parents grief ... just me pure speculation at the moment
     


  2. HollyHunter9

    HollyHunter9 Well-Known Member

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    This is what I'm leaning towards too. I also think sometimes people in these positions let it go to their head a bit. They see themselves as gods and enjoy the attention and pedestal that the families often put them on. I would also guess that after she got away with the first one it gave her a bit of a thrill. I do also think the hospital needs an external investigation. Very odd it went on for years and no one noticed ?
     
  3. Stella8

    Stella8 Well-Known Member

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    Marg from Oz, LadyL, Vevvie and 4 others like this.
  4. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Even if they had as you word it “ a killer piece of evidence “ a year ago, they wouldn’t necessarily charge then on one case alone because they want to keep all the indictments together at Crown Court because if they had charged her on one of the cases where death occurred then that case would then have to go through the process and dates set for the case to be heard at Court but it would then be a stand alone case rather than one of many which shows a course of conduct. I wouldn’t want to split the indictments. I think it needs to be borne in mind that they are investigating 17 cases and therefore it’s about getting the evidence for each and every one and therefore, IMOO the three year investigation is not indicative of not having a solid prime facia case as opposed to having circumstantial with just enough to charge at this point in time . I don’t believe that to be the case. I have personally worked on a case where two offenders were subject of an investigation from 1960 to 1995 and they were arrested and bailed and arrested and released on numerous occasions so that as we built the case, any issues that needed clarification of the evidence could be put to the defendants which in turn would either move the case forward or put to bed a line of enquiry. My case had 108 victims and took 4 years to get it ready to finally enable it to go to crown court. So I don’t think that we can say, until we hear the opening of the prosecutions case. It’s all kept very low key and quiet as much as can be as it’s not necessary to increase the public’s fear of crime. ALL MOO
     
  5. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Can I respectfully ask what your point is? I have tried my best to explain a couple of your posts now and expand upon the Police process but it seems each time that I do, you post some further information that I’m not sure what the point is/are?
    I don’t mean to be snarky at all, it’s just that it’s late and I am tired and I am reading the few quoted messages from you in reply to my explanations but I’m really not sure what it is you want me to explain further or what your point is..... kind regards
     
  6. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Munchausen by proxy is generally making a child unwell so that you can then go back to the child and make them better or worse on some cases and as you say, glorify in ‘saving’ them or the attention from doing everything they can which possibly goes over and above what’s expected- attention seeking etc
    So do you personally think that this was /is her motivation?
     
  7. Buttonspoons

    Buttonspoons Active Member

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  8. JosieJo

    JosieJo Well-Known Member

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    Yes thats my gut feeling
     
  9. Kemug

    Kemug Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's my gut feeling too. And I have another - I can't help feeling that she is going to plead "guilty". However, I'll probably end up with egg on my face.
     
  10. Scorpiette

    Scorpiette Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before...is it possible these babies were very poorly, and in her head she couldn't bear them suffering and decided it would be kinder to 'euthanase' them?
     
  11. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    That may well be her mitigation but unfortunately , she is not there to play God and that’s not her choice to make. She signed up to the Hippocratic Oath and thats to:

    The passage from the original version of the Hippocratic Oath, “I will use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgement; I will abstain from harming or wronging any man by it,” orders heathcare professionals to do their best in their job and not use their skill or knowledge to harm or kill their patients.
    Therefore, irrespective of what she thought and ultimately did as a result, if in fact she did anything untoward at all as she’s presumed innocent until proven guilty, it’s still wrong and she has more than overstepped her professional boundaries. IMOO
     
  12. Ironside

    Ironside Well-Known Member

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    Premature babies can have development issues so perhaps rather than acting from kindness she was practicing eugenics.
     
  13. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    What does practicing eugenics mean? I am not familiar with that phrase ? Thank you in anticipation
     
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  14. Angleterre

    Angleterre Verified Law Enforcement England

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    Oh ok , I googled it. Not a lot shocks me after my long Police career as a Detective but this is one of the few things that just has. This is abhorrent and I sincerely hope that it doesn’t take place in this day and age. I know that there’s talk about so called ‘ designer babies’ to eek out those with disabilities and illnesses and disease etc and I believe that this is becoming more prevalent amongst the wealthier amongst the population but it doesn’t make it any more palatable when they say that it’s to prevent their child dying of specific diseases. Therefore, the thought that it could be a nurturing medical professional engaging in this practice on a one person mission to rid us of such , is so abhorrent that it’s shockingly painful to think about. We are all different and it’s this diversity, wether that be skin colour, sexuality, religious beliefs, appearance, personality and yes disability, that make our world and the thought that someone again plays judge , jury and executioner to decide who should live and who should die based upon their premature illnesses, is beyond the pale!
     
  15. Whitehall 1212

    Whitehall 1212 Trust nothing, question everything!

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    Hi Angleterre,

    It is a shocking concept and one that I fear is far more prevalent throughout the world than acknowledged. Man's inhumanity knows no bounds, it seems.

    The history of Josef Mengele demonstrates how a sense of absolute entitlement together with an absence of any compassion, empathy or medical integrity can result in wicked atrocities.

    I do think that most people are inherently good and kind though though and it is often most visible in the worst of times, when their humanity gets a jolt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  16. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that was her motivation. Munchausen by Proxy perpetrators generally do not intend for their patients to die. The satisfaction comes from the attention and praise given to them as the hero, in my opinion.

    Since there were eight deaths, it seems to me that she acted with an intent to kill.

    It's more believable to me that the attempted murders weren't successful because Doctors were able to save them, then the eight murdered babies were "mistakes" because she didn't mean for them to die.

    IMO
     
  17. Vevvie

    Vevvie Member

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    Pretty damning list of charges. I’d like to know why nothing was noticed at the time on the ward. Hope she isn’t being made a scapegoat for the unit/hospital failing. Those poor parents, including LL’s.
     
  18. Slixcon

    Slixcon Active Member

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    Another consideration is that MSBP, as a "mental disorder", is presumably quite difficult for the subject to regulate or control. Yet there was a four year gap between her starting work as a nurse at the hospital and the first attempted murder. If she truly has MSBP, how did she manage to refrain from inducing illness in her patients for such an extended period of time?
     
  19. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it had to do with opportunity. She may not have MSBP, but other mental health disorders may play a role.

    It's also not uncommon for serial killers to resist urges or compulsions for long periods of time. At other times they may be out of control. Sometimes once they start, they can't stop and will adjust or perfect their "technique" as they continue so as not to leave evidence behind and to avoid getting caught.

    This is all my opinion, since we don't know what evidence LE has or anything about the suspects history of mental health. If she truly is a serial killer, then I would imagine there would be something in her past, such as trauma, abuse, or a mental health disorder that led to her actions.

    I'm curious to know what method was used to kill them, since it seems it was very difficult to establish the COD in the infants who died, or what caused the symptoms in those who survived.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  20. Supernovae

    Supernovae Active Member

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    My underlying point, which I've been making on and off since the third page of this thread, is that this is a fact pattern that has produced miscarriages of justice in the past and it troubles me that people have moved on to speculating what motive/personality disorders she may have.

    Of course it's possible they've got something rather more concrete than that in relation to one or more of the deaths, but in terms of what that could be nothing really makes sense in my mind. If she'd been virtually caught in the act then I feel like they would have done more than move her to administrative duties and only have her arrested two years after the alleged killings. The other possibility would be that they had evidence of her misappropriating drugs, but if that was in play, I would have thought it would be its own charge on the indictment. Beyond that what else could there be? There were a lot of deaths, she was around for a lot of them, the deaths seemed odd, she was a bit weird, but that's exactly the sought of circumstances and reasoning that has lead to those miscarriages of justice.
     

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