UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[Marantz4250b]

Plea and case management on 19th Feb, I believe.

Thankyou, i knew it would be coming up I just couldn't remember when. It will be interesting to hear all the facts and evidence[/QUOTE]

It will indeed. I've made no secret of the fact that I'm quite fascinated by this case and it's facts as we currently understand them. I'm very interested to know what evidence they have to prove murder of the child mentioned in the fund raiser today. As I said before, I suspect that a lot of the evidence will be of a circumstantial nature and I can't imagine how that can not be true of the baby mentioned. I just don't see what evidence there could possibly be to prove murder of a person in a different location days after the accused presumably last saw them or had any access to them.

Edit: it appears that the child mentioned is the child to which one of the charges of attempted murder relate to. So, they are saying that she attempted to murder the child, failed, and then successfully murdered her. I'm fascinated to discover how they think that happened if she wasn't in the same hospital. As I say, she may have gone with her but I'm not sure why that would be the case.

 

[sleepyhead25]

I just think a lot of people are quite reluctant to believe that corruption goes on within some of these organisations but unfortunately it does and it is much more common than people realise. I'm not bashing the NHS in any way, it does indeed provide a great service and saves lives but there is dark underbelly of it which a lot of senior management make great effort to cover up. Adding in another link to further support what I'm trying to say.

Why is there yet another cover-up scandal in NHS? EXPRESS COMMENT

I think as a country we see the NHS in a cult like way without any faults or corruption. People believe not a bad word must be spoken about it because we are so lucky to have a universal health care system free at the point of use; and although on the whole it’s fantastic, it is not perfect; staff make mistakes, there is masses of corruption, and a small amount of serious wrong doing/criminal activity such as what they are accusing LL of does go on, sometimes undetected.

If you have ever suffered at the hands of the NHS you will know how quick they are to try cover it up / destroy or lose any potential evidence that could be used against them. Exactly the same with the Police and Local Authorities.

When I talk about her being ‘set up’ I mean the trust picking a candidate that ‘fits the bill’ for something like this. She was at the wrong place at the wrong time, as probably were other nurses, but why LL? Was she easily led, manipulated, highly emotional, naieve? Did they think she would crack easily? Or did she just not have many years under her belt so a very easy target?

really looking forward to hearing all the evidence!

 

[Marantz4250b]

When I talk about her being ‘set up’ I mean the trust picking a candidate that ‘fits the bill’ for something like this. She was at the wrong place at the wrong time, as probably were other nurses, but why LL? Was she easily led, manipulated, highly emotional, naieve? Did they think she would crack easily? Or did she just not have many years under her belt so a very easy target?

really looking forward to hearing all the evidence!

If I were gong to pick someone to take the fall for someone else's incompetence or bad practices then I think she'd be a prime candidate for all the reasons you mention. None of us know her but she seems far from the type who is capable of resisting strong authority figures. I'd wager that she's never had a serious argument or falling out with anyone in her life and would completely fall to pieces if faced with even minor allegations of malpractice or wrongdoing. She was said to have been extremely conscientious in her studies which I think is mostly due to her being very devoted to what she wanted to do, but I bet there is a fair bit of never wanting to mess up or let people down and face the resulting criticism in there too.

 

[naomiuk]

Not sure if the timeline and information of each baby has been posted, this article lists it all.

Shocks me to the core that she is accused of attempted murder of a Maddie and then 3 days later a seperate charge of murder on Maddie.

Failed the first time so did it again? That’s a whole extra degree of twisted.

In full: the murder and attempted murder charges faced by Hereford nurse Lucy Letby

I don’t know if I missed this mentioned before but looking at the last three charges, does anyone else think she was caught because she tried to murder the remaining triplet the next day?

 

[Marantz4250b]

I don’t know if I missed this mentioned before but looking at the last three charges, does anyone else think she was caught because she tried to murder the remaining triplet the next day?

No, because if she was actually caught in the act of attempting to murder a child then they would have brought charges straight away. The CPS must formally charge as soon as evidence to support it becomes available. None of this was even investigated until the hospital called in the police in 2017, at least year after the last offence that she is charged with so I can't see anything to suggest that she was "caught" doing anything.

The post you quoted mentioned the offences she is charged with in relation to MaddieF. One attempted murder and one murder. These cannot be related to the same act; what I mean is that if LL had done something to the child at the CoC hospital which had subsequently caused it's death at the other location then she would only have been charged with murder. This means, then, that she either did two things at the CoC hospital (an attempt to kill and then a separate act which resulted in delayed death at the other location) or she did one thing at the CoC which failed and subsequently did something else at the other hospital. Both of these seem unlikely, quite honestly.

 

[naomiuk]

No, because if she was actually caught in the act of murdering a child then they would have brought charges straight away. The CPS must formally charge as soon as evidence to support it becomes available. None of this was even investigated until the hospital called in the police in 2017, at least year after the last offence that she is charged with so I can't see anything to suggest that she was "caught" doing anything.

The post you quoted mentioned the offences she is charged with in relation to MaddieF. One attempted murder and one murder. These cannot be related to the same act; what I mean is that if LL had done something to the child at the CoC hospital which had subsequently caused it's death at the other location then she would only have been charged with murder. This means, then, that she either did two things at the CoC hospital (an attempt to kill and then a separate act which resulted in delayed death at the other location) or she did one thing at the CoC which failed and subsequently did something else at the other hospital. Both of these seem unlikely, quite honestly.

I understand that she wasn’t caught then but the article I quoted also listed her other charges and the murders of the two triplets on the 23rd and 24th June 2016 were followed by an attempted murder on the 25th June.
I wondered if that may have been the third sibling and that it may have caused speculation, which I presume they must of had at some point to remove her from clinical duties and to investigate her for these crimes.
The main point of my post was to ask if the attempted murder on the 25th was or is thought to be the third triplet as Joseph and Eli were killed in the two days prior.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I understand that she wasn’t caught then but the article I quoted also listed her other charges and the murders of the two triplets on the 23rd and 24th June 2016 were followed by an attempted murder on the 25th June.
I wondered if that may have been the third sibling and that it may have caused speculation, which I presume they must of had at some point to remove her from clinical duties and to investigate her for these crimes.
The main point of my post was to ask if the attempted murder on the 25th was or is thought to be the third triplet as Joseph and Eli were killed in the two days prior.

Those dates just serve to make things seem even more bizarre than at first. On the face of it we have a situation involving allegations of the most horrendous nature against someone who gives the appearance of being quite possibly the least likely serial murder in British criminal history who now we are to believe wasn't just killing from time to time but carried out a sustained attempted slaughter of babies over several consecutive days and who evaded detection, or even altering suspicion to anything illegal being carried out for months and possibly a couple of years until her first arrest. There are no allegations, which we know of, relating to any criminality during her training or for the first four years or so of her nursing career. We are asked to believe that someone who had access to babies over that period of time and who apparently did nothing for four years suddenly launched into a sustained campaign of murder and attempted murder against babies which no one even noticed for months and months.

I think we must ask ourselves what is more likely here - the situation above or some systemic failure, whether it be due to medication, technology, personnel or management. I think I know where my money would be. If Lucy Letby has done all this then she isn't just an unusual serial killer, I'd suggest she is probably unique in every respect and is one of the most significantly dangerous and manipulative criminal minds ever. I really don't think that's true though.

 

[Jules2021]

I've been following this case ever since it started and been reading this thread for a while and finally decided to post my thoughts. I too think this is just a fascinating and really odd case that I can't fathom at all. She looks like the girl next door, someone who could be any one of our friends or family members and to think what she is accused of, it's just mad really. Having said that I believe any one is capable of almost anything it's just she doesn't seem to fit the profile but then none of us know what the police think they have on her. She also seems to have been pretty young to be in charge of such premature babies, she was what in her mid 20s when all this happened? Is this usual? I have no experience of nursing to know if it's usual to have that much responsibility at that age to be left alone enough to do anything to these babies-she can't have had a lot of experience in the role surely at that point?

Ok, I've found that page - one of them anyway as it doesn't include the wording by the parents. It mentions that the child was born at 25 weeks at the Countess of Chester Hospital and seems to suggest that she was moved very soon after birth as the hospital didn't have the facilities required to look after her. I can't imagine she stayed more than a very short time at the CoC. The child apparently lived for three days.

25 weeks is incredibly premature, like I said I have no medical experience but have been reading up on it and the earliest baby to be born and survive was just under 22 weeks. 25 weeks they do actually have a pretty good chance but only if getting the proper care in a neonatal unit (which we already know was lacking at the hospital LL worked at) and obviously it wouldn't be unusual for some not to survive. Under 24 weeks they are unlikely to survive as their lungs and other organs are not developed enough.

I was just reading a story the other day (nothing to do with this case) about a baby born at 28 weeks who was one of IVF triplets-both his sisters died within two weeks of birth and he spent weeks in hospital only to come out and then stop breathing at one point with a double hernia. No negligence or anything as far as I can tell. He's fine now and out of hospital being 4 months old now but I just think with IVF being more and more commonplace and multiple births (I'm guessing the ones in the LL case are IVF at least the triplets anyway) this will become more and more usual as nurses battle to save tiny tiny babies born extremely premature.

I also wonder if it will become more common for the police to be brought in to investigate-it's happening at another hospital too you guys might be interested in this story-

Shropshire baby deaths review: What do we know?

-although a lot of cases are negligence when the mother is in labour there are other failings where staff didn't realise how poorly a baby was-it could be a very similar story. The police are apparently looking into whether to bring a criminal case against either the trust or staff in connection with maternity care.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Don't know of what significance it may be put the page on the website of Pryers Solicitors who were/are representing some of the parents appears to have been taken down.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Don't know of what significance it may be put the page on the website of Pryers Solicitors who were/are representing some of the parents appears to have been taken down.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Back on page 11 of this thread someone posted a link to the Hereford Times article which gave the dates of all the crimes of which LL is accused. It says that the attempted murder of Maddie Freed took place on the 17th February (the day she was born) at Chester. It says the date of her alleged murder was 20th February at Chester. This cannot be correct - or at least it seems extremely unlikely.

We know from the parents friends fundraising site that the baby was moved to Arrowe Park hospital in Merseyside as the CoC did not have the facilities to care for her. Presumably then, this would have been very rapidly after birth if she needed specialist care? How could LL have murdered her three days later in "Chester" when the baby wasn't even in Chester anymore? The fundraising page makes it very clear that the baby did not die at the CoC. Did she really make an unsuccessful attempt to murder the child and then pretty much immediately made a second attempt which turned out to be successful twenty miles away and several days later? Or are they insinuating that she could have somehow orchestrated the death at a distance and committed the unlawful acts from Chester while the baby was elsewhere?

 

[nothinonyou]

Back on page 11 of this thread someone posted a link to the Hereford Times article which gave the dates of all the crimes of which LL is accused. It says that the attempted murder of Maddie Freed took place on the 17th February (the day she was born) at Chester. It says the date of her alleged murder was 20th February at Chester. This cannot be correct - or at least it seems extremely unlikely.

We know from the parents friends fundraising site that the baby was moved to Arrowe Park hospital in Merseyside as the CoC did not have the facilities to care for her. Presumably then, this would have been very rapidly after birth if she needed specialist care? How could LL have murdered her three days later in "Chester" when the baby wasn't even in Chester anymore? The fundraising page makes it very clear that the baby did not die at the CoC. Did she really make an unsuccessful attempt to murder the child and then pretty much immediately made a second attempt which turned out to be successful twenty miles away and several days later? Or are they insinuating that she could have somehow orchestrated the death at a distance and committed the unlawful acts from Chester while the baby was elsewhere?

I imagine she administered some kind of a dose to the baby which then resulted in death a few days later. I could be wrong as I have not been following this thread in depth, not sure if causes of death of the babies has been determined.

Causes of death of babies should be phrase never written, I do not know how Lucy Letby sleeps at night, that's all

 

[sleepyhead25]

Back on page 11 of this thread someone posted a link to the Hereford Times article which gave the dates of all the crimes of which LL is accused. It says that the attempted murder of Maddie Freed took place on the 17th February (the day she was born) at Chester. It says the date of her alleged murder was 20th February at Chester. This cannot be correct - or at least it seems extremely unlikely.

We know from the parents friends fundraising site that the baby was moved to Arrowe Park hospital in Merseyside as the CoC did not have the facilities to care for her. Presumably then, this would have been very rapidly after birth if she needed specialist care? How could LL have murdered her three days later in "Chester" when the baby wasn't even in Chester anymore? The fundraising page makes it very clear that the baby did not die at the CoC. Did she really make an unsuccessful attempt to murder the child and then pretty much immediately made a second attempt which turned out to be successful twenty miles away and several days later? Or are they insinuating that she could have somehow orchestrated the death at a distance and committed the unlawful acts from Chester while the baby was elsewhere?

These are my theories:

1. Although MF was born at 25wks 1 day and was clearly very sick the baby had a even chance of survival let’s say 50/50 - until LL potentially did something to the baby very early on in her life to make her even sicker so that it would only ever just be machines keeping her alive even if she grew bigger knowing that her life chances would then go from 50/50 to 0.

2. Did LL somehow befriend the family of MF despite only caring for her in her first few hours of life - therefore getting herself access to the hospital that MF was transferred too and doing further harm to the child? I personally don’t think this is the case but if it was the case - did she befriend and support (more than was ‘normal’) all the grieving parents?

this reminds me in some ways of the murder of Peter Farquhar - who was gradually poisoned over time by his ‘lover’ - who then created a scene after his murder that looked like an accident / suicide.

Maids Moreton: Ben Field jailed for author's murder

 

[Marantz4250b]

I imagine she administered some kind of a dose to the baby which then resulted in death a few days later. I could be wrong as I have not been following this thread in depth, not sure if causes of death of the babies has been determined.

Causes of death of babies should be phrase never written, I do not know how Lucy Letby sleeps at night, that's all

This is just speculation though and, I have to say, unlikely speculation. I've asked a few medical professionals, including nurses, what they think she may have done and no one can come up with anything. It's all very well to say that she "administered" some substance but what substance could she have administered to cause such a delayed reaction? The cause of death, as far as I am aware, was heart/lung failure. What is there that could cause that?

I guess from your last sentence that you are pretty convinced that she's guilty, then?

 

[Marantz4250b]

These are my theories:

1. Although MF was born at 25wks 1 day and was clearly very sick the baby had a even chance of survival let’s say 50/50 - until LL potentially did something to the baby very early on in her life to make her even sicker so that it would only ever just be machines keeping her alive even if she grew bigger knowing that her life chances would then go from 50/50 to 0.

2. Did LL somehow befriend the family of MF despite only caring for her in her first few hours of life - therefore getting herself access to the hospital that MF was transferred too and doing further harm to the child? I personally don’t think this is the case but if it was the case - did she befriend and support (more than was ‘normal’) all the grieving parents?

this reminds me in some ways of the murder of Peter Farquhar - who was gradually poisoned over time by his ‘lover’ - who then created a scene after his murder that looked like an accident / suicide.

Maids Moreton: Ben Field jailed for author's murder

To address your points;

1) I suppose she could have done but what could she have done? As my previous post, I have have spoken to a few medical professionals and no one can suggest what she might have done. The cause of death that is suggested in the fund raising page is lung failure - not uncommon for premature babies - how could she have caused that?

2) This is a non-starter because the murder charge specifically states that she committed the alleged act in Chester, not at Arrowe Park hospital which is something like twenty miles from Chester. If she had had access to the baby at the other hospital then the charge would not have been one of murder in Chester. It says the she murdered the baby on the 20th so how could she have done that? I was thinking in my post yesterday that she might have done two things on the 17th, one which amounted to an attempt and one which caused the death three days later at the other location. The charge, however, suggests that she committed the act of murder on the 20th (and at Chester when the baby wasn't even in Chester) not the 17th. If they were unsure as to the specific date then why is she not charged with murder caused over a date range as she is in other cases?

The only thing I can think of which could explain the situation is if she were somehow nefariously directing or influencing the care of the baby from Chester perhaps by giving the staff at the other hospital duff information as to what to do but this seems so unlikely as to be bordering on the ridiculous.

 

[Tortoise]

Something put into a tube inserted into a vein, at birth, for nutritional purposes, perhaps. (speculation)

I think the date of death may be used as the date of murder, even if the act leading to death happened earlier.

 

[Tortoise]

Not related to this case, but this is an example of contaminated nutritional drips given to premature babies Third baby dies from contaminated 'Total Parenteral Nutrition' drip

 

[Marantz4250b]

Something put into a tube inserted into a vein, at birth, for nutritional purposes, perhaps. (speculation)

I think the date of death may be used as the date of murder, even if the act leading to death happened earlier.

Yes, you're correct. The CPS website says that the date of death should be used. The baby didn't die in Chester though so one would presume that they are saying that something done in Chester caused the death at the other location, I assume.

Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[whatawaster]

I love reading everyone's opinions on here especially with cases like this. I really have no idea where I stand with this one.

 

[elliefant]

I agree @whatawaster , I’ve seen nothing that enables me to form a strong view, or much of a view at all really. We have seen very little of course. Knowing how the children were allegedly killed will be a big piece of the jigsaw for me I think.

However I don’t think the NHS and/or police are deliberately wrecking this nurse’s life as some sort of cover-up, so am not going with the conspiracy angle.

Looking forward to hearing more facts from the authorities on this unusual case.