GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[Cerebral]

Excellent screen grab & points. The body was certainly not laying there undiscovered on the road's edge for 7 days....and in all likelihood was dumped overnight/X'mas morning. I certainly hope the police are reviewing CCTV footage until X'Mas day for the Clifton bridge. [NUA having a PhD in people movement and being a resident in Clifton for a few years now would be the last person to ferry his neighbour's corpse across the CCTV covered, toll paying bridge. ]

It may have been dumped in haste or it may have been dumped for an obvious early/ perhaps intentional X'Mas day discovery. An intentional intended X'Mas discovery would go with the taunting pizza & note written in black ink sent to the Ram Pub & reaching the Pub X'Mas eve, which the police seized, and the possibility that we have a crazed killer on the loose & the police advice for weeks now of caution and young women not to walk at night alone.

Curious that the contents of the note have not been revealed.

 

[Lynn R]

as an aside I was out and about in my local town on Saturday the 18th. I drove south on the M1 junction 12 to 10 around 1pm and the snow came thick and fast and tbh I didnt notice anything apart from what was in front of me! And for days the snow lay and still I looked straight ahead while driving! maybe a woman thing my point being if someone is just concentrating on the road ahead while driving they may not notice what is on the side? Of course this excludes walkers.

 

[Lynn R]

Yes I've seen those Lynn.
One of the Paper headlines was a little more imaginative.

Hunt for 4x4 seen prowling Jo death road

The 4X4 wasn't the only suspicious activity around there at the time. There was the White van man in a wooly hat who sped off for no apparent reason. Men seen vaulting fences in the dead of night, and two men soaked running out of the woods at 6 a.m.

As far as I know they stopped appealing for the 4X4 after several drivers came forward. Certainly it hasn't been mentioned with any great urgency for a few weeks now.

True but this woman is named - I skim over posts stating random screams/4x4's tbh

 

[Phillb]

as an aside I was out and about in my local town on Saturday the 18th. I drove south on the M1 junction 12 to 10 around 1pm and the snow came thick and fast and tbh I didnt notice anything apart from what was in front of me! And for days the snow lay and still I looked straight ahead while driving! maybe a woman thing my point being if someone is just concentrating on the road ahead while driving they may not notice what is on the side? Of course this excludes walkers.

Apparently it's a pretty busy location.

Lorry drivers were also going in and out of the entrance to Durnford Quarry, yards from where Miss Yeates was found.

Normally you would see the same people walking their dogs at about the same time every day."

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...discovery/article-3081225-detail/article.html

Lorry drivers have a high up vantage point, they'd be going pretty slow turning into the quarry.

 

[Lynn R]

Excellent screen grab & points. The body was certainly not laying there undiscovered on the road's edge for 7 days....and in all likelihood was dumped overnight/X'mas morning. I certainly hope the police are reviewing CCTV footage until X'Mas day for the Clifton bridge. [NUA having a PhD in people movement and being a resident in Clifton for a few years now would be the last person to ferry his neighbour's corpse across the CCTV covered, toll paying bridge. ]

It may have been dumped in haste or it may have been dumped for an obvious early/ perhaps intentional X'Mas day discovery. An intentional intended X'Mas discovery would go with the taunting pizza & note written in black ink sent to the Ram Pub & reaching the Pub X'Mas eve, which the police seized, and the possibility that we have a crazed killer on the loose & the police advice for weeks now of caution and young women not to walk at night alone.

Curious that the contents of the note have not been revealed.

ah cumon -the only cases I can remember where the supposed killer taunted the police were the zodiac killer and the yorkshire ripper - the latter was proved a hoax and a man prosecuted and the former has never been caught so impossible to tell. I dont believe this is a serial killer. Please feel free to correct me however re taunting the the police


edit - ok am sure other taunting has happened but never by the actual killer - again correct me if I am wrong

 

[kemo]

Between the police policy of withholding information and the press's "casual relationship with facts", there is a lot we do not know. Obviously there is some basis for the arrest. From early reports after the body was discovered, there was definitely a suggestion that the body had been there for a week buried in snow. We don't know if it really was there all week, but the police did not seem to rule that out. It doesn't take much snow to makes something unrecognizable even if only partially buried. If, as reported, the body was completely frozen, the position of the frozen body would either be consistent with or inconsistent with having been set there before it froze. Rigor mortis may affect this however. Perhaps to experts can sort it out.

What we do seem to know is that the investigation was dead in the water until, "about" three weeks prior to Jan 19th, when a review of a CCTV cam noted that a ”suspicious vehicle" crossed the Clifton bridge early Dec 18th. This would coincide with the arrest of CJ. The next big break was the phone call from the weeping woman. This preceded the arrest of VT. We can't be certain that CJ's arrest was a result of the bridge sighting; it may have been a result of CJ having told his neighbor that he saw things he did not tell the police. This is pretty much all we know.

I do not understand the system in the UK where someone who is not charged with a crime must still post bail. Can this only be used as a means of keeping uncharged "suspects" from taking a rabbit or can it be used for a "witness" who is not suspected of participation in a crime? Somehow, I would have expected CJ to have received some sort of exoneration by now and I would expect him to have of come out of the shadows now that he is cleared and acted a little indigent about the way he was treated by the press. But they haven’t. I’m wondering if there isn’t some sort of cloud still hanging over CJ.

 

[moshimoshi]

Excellent screen grab & points. The body was certainly not laying there undiscovered on the road's edge for 7 days....and in all likelihood was dumped overnight/X'mas morning. I certainly hope the police are reviewing CCTV footage until X'Mas day for the Clifton bridge. [NUA having a PhD in people movement and being a resident in Clifton for a few years now would be the last person to ferry his neighbour's corpse across the CCTV covered, toll paying bridge. ]

It may have been dumped in haste or it may have been dumped for an obvious early/ perhaps intentional X'Mas day discovery. An intentional intended X'Mas discovery would go with the taunting pizza & note written in black ink sent to the Ram Pub & reaching the Pub X'Mas eve, which the police seized, and the possibility that we have a crazed killer on the loose & the police advice for weeks now of caution and young women not to walk at night alone.

Curious that the contents of the note have not been revealed.

I think people movement in his case is an aspect of architecture; ie where people congregate in lobbies, how long for, how many people use the water fountain depending on its position, and so on. People movement in the case of JY might be more like the work of ambulance crews or delivery men. In the end, if evading detection was the aim, leaving JY where she was found wasn't all that smart.

Also I'm not sure he's been in Clifton for years, or has he?

 

[Lynn R]

Apparently it's a pretty busy location.



Lorry drivers have a high up vantage point, they'd be going pretty slow turning into the quarry.

Hmm according to locals it does seem a busy place

 

[Lynn R]

Between the police policy of withholding information and the press's "casual relationship with facts", there is a lot we do not know. Obviously there is some basis for the arrest. From early reports after the body was discovered, there was definitely a suggestion that the body had been there for a week buried in snow. We don't know if it really was there all week, but the police did not seem to rule that out. It doesn't take much snow to makes something unrecognizable even if only partially buried. If, as reported, the body was completely frozen, the position of the frozen body would either be consistent with or inconsistent with having been set there before it froze. Rigor mortis may affect this however. Perhaps to experts can sort it out.

What we do seem to know is that the investigation was dead in the water until, "about" three weeks prior to Jan 19th, when a review of a CCTV cam noted that a ”suspicious vehicle" crossed the Clifton bridge early Dec 18th. This would coincide with the arrest of CJ. The next big break was the phone call from the weeping woman. This preceded the arrest of VT. We can't be certain that CJ's arrest was a result of the bridge sighting; it may have been a result of CJ having told his neighbor that he saw things he did not tell the police. This is pretty much all we know.

I do not understand the system in the UK where someone who is not charged with a crime must still post bail. Can this only be used as a means of keeping uncharged "suspects" from taking a rabbit or can it be used for a "witness" who is not suspected of participation in a crime? Somehow, I would have expected CJ to have received some sort of exoneration by now and I would expect him to have of come out of the shadows now that he is cleared and acted a little indigent about the way he was treated by the press. But they haven’t. I’m wondering if there isn’t some sort of cloud still hanging over CJ.

Kemo see my earlier post re CJ and the crimewatch reconstruction post #95

 

[Cerebral]

Hi Lynn, well I did'nt say serial killer...that would imply multiple victims.. I said 'a crazed killer' and it is a possibility.

I don't think we hear of very many killers who've killed 'by hand' (as opposed to poisons/guns/medication overdoses) having a PhD either and obviously we have someone charged who does. Perhaps my point is more.. at this point any number of possibilities continue to exist.

IMO the likelihood of the the body lying undiscovered roadside by the quarry entrance for more than overnight in along a stretch of road traversed not just by vehicular traffic, but cyclists, dog walkers, joggers etc is very unlikely. The immediate deduction of that is that it would like put NUA outside the range of being able to dump the body.

Going back to the charges against NUA... “The grounds for applying for a remand in custody are failing to surrender and interfering with the course of justice.'' Any legal eagles care to elaborate on "failing to surrender"?? Is that just technical speak or does it actually imply that NUA was ask to come in to a police station and declined? It was a 2 am arrest after all.

 

[enqueteur]

One thing that stuck with me at the time but seemed to receive scant attention is the report of a witness seeing a silver car or van "blocking" the road outside 44 Canynge Rd on the night Jo got back from her works party. The witness had to go around the vehicle to get by it (not sure if they were driving or on foot ) and even remembered there was I think electrical equipment in the front passenger seat of the vehicle.

Can anyone else remember this appearing in the press or a link that I could take another look at it ?

Yes, I remember that report very well and recall that the car had been left parked in a haphazard manner blocking traffic on the night of December 17th but had disappeared off the road by morning.

Then there was this post on digitalspy:
Incidentally I'm told on good authority that there was multiple reports of a white van with lights flashing parked on the verge of Longwood Lane one evening in the week she was missing. I assume it's been eliminated.

 

[enqueteur]

Going back to the charges against NUA... “The grounds for applying for a remand in custody are failing to surrender and interfering with the course of justice.'' Any legal eagles care to elaborate on "failing to surrender"?? Is that just technical speak or does it actually imply that NUA was ask to come in to a police station and declined?

Here is one definition but I fail to see how it applies in this instance:

Failure to surrender is a crime where a person who has been released on bail as part of criminal proceedings fails without reasonable cause to surrender to custody.

 

[Lynn R]

Hi Lynn, well I did'nt say serial killer...that would imply multiple victims.. I said 'a crazed killer' and it is a possibility.

I don't think we hear of very many killers who've killed 'by hand' (as opposed to poisons/guns/medication overdoses) having a PhD either and obviously we have someone charged who does. Perhaps my point is more.. at this point any number of possibilities continue to exist.

IMO the likelihood of the the body lying undiscovered roadside by the quarry entrance for more than overnight in along a stretch of road traversed not just by vehicular traffic, but cyclists, dog walkers, joggers etc is very unlikely. The immediate deduction of that is that it would like put NUA outside the range of being able to dump the body.

Going back to the charges against NUA... “The grounds for applying for a remand in custody are failing to surrender and interfering with the course of justice.'' Any legal eagles care to elaborate on "failing to surrender"?? Is that just technical speak or does it actually imply that NUA was ask to come in to a police station and declined? It was a 2 am arrest after all.

Well as far as I can make out this is a crime of passion - a one off - a crazed killer implies someone crazy does it not? Someone who will kill again. I dont think many people with a phd kill - remind me of any if you know better - anyway my point was that people who write poison pen letters are rarely the perps. I have accepted that the perp may have dumped the body on xmas day but I also accept that may not be the case. You are obviously very passionate that this is the case - I however like to keep an open mind

 

[Deckard]

ah cumon -the only cases I can remember where the supposed killer taunted the police were the zodiac killer and the yorkshire ripper - the latter was proved a hoax and a man prosecuted and the former has never been caught so impossible to tell. I dont believe this is a serial killer. Please feel free to correct me however re taunting the the police


edit - ok am sure other taunting has happened but never by the actual killer - again correct me if I am wrong

Dennis Rader btk killer. Afaik one of his victims happened to be a close neighbour. She was killed in her home and her body removed to a different deposition site. I cannot remember if he took photos of his kills, merely staged shots of himself in death poses or both.

 

[Cerebral]

I certainly wouldn't call myself passionate in the least..... I am very open to any number of perpertrator possibilites... and within that context introduced a few twists that have been raise such as the suspicions about RS being the weeping caller.. other possibilites etc. based on what we know..and what we know to be somewhat as being factual

 

[Lynn R]

Dennis Rader btk killer. Afaik one of his victims happened to be a close neighbour. She was killed in her home and her body removed to a different deposition site. I cannot remember if he took photos of his kills, merely staged shots of himself in death poses or both.

OK not familiar with the case - just read about it - again pretty rare?

 

[Deckard]

OK not familiar with the case - just read about it - again pretty rare?

I have to say that I registered on this site to see more indepth information on Jo's case. The most chilling thing about all this is the mountain of missing or located cases on here. There are hundreds of them. That's what is scary imo !

 

[LadyL]

Excellent screen grab & points. The body was certainly not laying there undiscovered on the road's edge for 7 days....and in all likelihood was dumped overnight/X'mas morning. I certainly hope the police are reviewing CCTV footage until X'Mas day for the Clifton bridge. [NUA having a PhD in people movement and being a resident in Clifton for a few years now would be the last person to ferry his neighbour's corpse across the CCTV covered, toll paying bridge. ]

It may have been dumped in haste or it may have been dumped for an obvious early/ perhaps intentional X'Mas day discovery. An intentional intended X'Mas discovery would go with the taunting pizza & note written in black ink sent to the Ram Pub & reaching the Pub X'Mas eve, which the police seized, and the possibility that we have a crazed killer on the loose & the police advice for weeks now of caution and young women not to walk at night alone.

Curious that the contents of the note have not been revealed.

[bbm]

what note? I've missed that detail somehow ...

I've read back through the threads and can't find any other mention
do you have a link?

ETA: never mind - I found links

http://swns.com/jo-yeates-murder-letter-written-on-pizza-label-sent-to-the-ram-pub-101309.html

 

[otto]

Does anyone know if there was a legal reason behind scrapping the reconstruction? Personally I think it is sending out the wrong message to the public i.e. 'we have our man' and surely influencing future jurors. If there IS a legal reason the police should come out and say so.

It could alter people's memories of the evening? They have a suspect so they are no longer looking for a suspect?

 

[otto]

I think people movement in his case is an aspect of architecture; ie where people congregate in lobbies, how long for, how many people use the water fountain depending on its position, and so on. People movement in the case of JY might be more like the work of ambulance crews or delivery men. In the end, if evading detection was the aim, leaving JY where she was found wasn't all that smart.

Also I'm not sure he's been in Clifton for years, or has he?

I think the work he did was in the area of architectural programming. He specialized in the area of building use analysis, and would be able to use that knowledge to propose building design layouts that optimized time management and work flow. A simple example would be that every building needs washrooms. Their placement, in relation to other building functions (office space, lobby, stairwells, elevators), would be organized such that people time or people resources are optimized. That is, washrooms need to be located such that people can get in and out and back to work quickly.

How would that translate into getting away with murder? He would be good at analyzing people flow ... predicting commonly used paths and how to optimize variables. My guess, if someone like VT did this, he would have the forethought to analyze routes, and choose the route that least compromised his chances of getting away with it. I do not believe he would put a body in a bag in the front seat of his car and cross a bridge with 30 cameras ... unless he was completely out of his mind.