GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[Salem]

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X Also, PhillB has done an excellent map of the area in question; it can be referred to here:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #3


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Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #9


Terrific discussion and sleuthing so far - an incredible amount of work has been done by a good many talented WSers. Welcome to those new to the case! Excellent links to information from media abound within the threads; familiarizing yourself with the case will enhance your understanding of the case discussion.

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[veggiefan]

thanks for that, it still sits strange with me though, the papers can print things after charges were made, so why not crimewatch? i mean what is this contempt of court thing about? i dont see what harm it would do at all

Since Monday, the papers have only been printing new events (the court appearances, the intention of VT's family to fly over, and so on).

Had the Crimewatch reconstruction gone ahead, it would have involved going over the whole thing again from the police's point of view (as they were closely involved in the reconstruction).

VT has not had the opportunity to broadcast his own version of what happened that night (which, for the sake of argument, might have included shots of him driving up the M11 and then buying a pizza in Norwich at the critical moment).

So, for the BBC to broadcast one side of events but not the other, would be considered very prejudicial to a jury, especially given the popularity of the Crimewatch programme.

 

[Luna15]

Did A & S state it wasn't taped? I just assumed the incident room phone number would have all the bells and whistles on it.

What exactly do we know about the phone call?

that it was leaked to the press to co-incide with VT's arrest :waitasec: the implication was, that it was the GF, now we find out, it is claimed that it wasn't. :waitasec:

I am wondering if GF's father might be instrumental in getting him decent legal representation:-

Her dad Geoffrey Morson, a Canadian-born lawyer educated at Harvard University in the US...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...s-murder-suspect-Vincent-Tabak-speak-out.html

 

[Patticake]

My point is, from what we know of VT, there's not the slightest thing that suggests anything like that. I know there's an argument that he might somehow have "snapped" as a result of some misunderstanding. Perhaps he did, but in my experience intellectuals don't let their emotions so overtake them that they harm others - they might storm out of the room, slam the door, curse, retire in shame and embarrassment, and so on. But intellectuals spend their lives considering the consequences of their actions ("what if I make that move in chess", "what if I make that change to a building I'm designing", and so on). It's so inbred, that I find it very difficult to imagine VT over-riding all that, even in a moment of passion, without his subconscious reminding him of the consequences.

I remember reading that he had some time adjusting to living in the UK and that his relationship TM made the difference.

This suggests that he may have some possible social/interpersonal issues that are not apparent. The "brainy type" who is ill at ease around others and who has a hard time making friends.

.

 

[Lynn R]

Joanna Yeates' murder case: Why is landlord <mod snip> CJ still a suspect?

Wednesday, January 26, 2011

"A leading criminologist has questioned why Joanna Yeates' landlord remains a suspect in her murder."

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Jo-s-landlord-bail-suspect/article-3145760-detail/article.html

On reading this article it seems to me the police are sending out mixed signals. Not releasing LL from the bail and cancelling the crimewatch reconstruction.
The first would suggest that LL is still a suspect and the second would suggest they 'need' no more evidence! If this is the case then it would seem the evidence against VT is SO strong they feel anymore evidence would be surplus to requirements. AND if this is the case why havent they lifted the bail from LL???

Hmmmmmm

Also I wonder if the reason VT didnt apply for bail was so that the reasons behind its refusal (any damning evidence) wouldnt be read out to the journalists. I would imagine the police and/or the defence team would want to keep this very quiet - for differing reasons.

And good to see the topic back up and running!

 

[bees]

Was there any snow on the ground early evening in Bristol on 17th December?

I'm trying to work out if it's likely that JY would step outside her flat in ski socks (which are very thick underfoot but not waterproof). It's the kind of thing one might wear on a cold evening instead of slippers and if it's dry outside, I could understand someone popping out to the bins etc.

 

[bees]

I remember reading that he had some time adjusting to living in the UK and that his relationship TM made the difference.

This suggests that he may have some possible social/interpersonal issues that are not apparent. The "brainy type" who is ill at ease around others and who has a hard time making friends.

.

I think anyone moving to another country for work would need time to adjust and make friends. I know several people in my own family who have done this and been pretty lonely to start with.

The response from those who know VT, and his previous colleagues in Holland suggests he isn't ill at ease around others. Most of my friends/colleagues are also "the brainy type" and (generally) they don't seem to be ill at ease around others so I'm not sure you can equate the two characteristics.

 

[Lynn R]

Ted Bundy had an IQ of 124 and was training to become a lawyer. Also had been groomed by the Republican Party for local political office. Good looking, clean cut, all American boy.

Ted Bundy 'appeared' to be the all american, clean cut, charming man - BUT he was already showing strange behavioural traits as a child. We have heard nothing of this sort about VT. And I am sure we would have by now.

I don't think it's a good comparison tbh although I have used it myself on these threads.

 

[Lynn R]

Ted Bundy had an IQ of 124 and was training to become a lawyer. Also had been groomed by the Republican Party for local political office. Good looking, clean cut, all American boy.

I wouldnt use the involvement in politics point as necessarily a positive thing!!

:floorlaugh:

 

[notsure]

Was there any snow on the ground early evening in Bristol on 17th December?

I'm trying to work out if it's likely that JY would step outside her flat in ski socks (which are very thick underfoot but not waterproof). It's the kind of thing one might wear on a cold evening instead of slippers and if it's dry outside, I could understand someone popping out to the bins etc.

I can't find any info on weather conditions. As you say, that is an important factor. If it's dry, you could tiptoe out on the path without having to put your boots back on.

 

[bees]

I can't find any info on weather conditions. As you say, that is an important factor. If it's dry, you could tiptoe out on the path without having to put your boots back on.

Just done some googling and it seems there was a light dusting of snow overnight 16th/17th in Bristol which melted in the morning and then more snow later overnight 17th/18th so the evening of the 17th looks like it was dry underfoot, which would support the possibility of being outside for a few minutes in ski socks (unless it had already started snowing heavily by 9pm - CCTV of her journey home suggest it's still clear around 8.30).

 

[Phillb]

I can't find any info on weather conditions. As you say, that is an important factor. If it's dry, you could tiptoe out on the path without having to put your boots back on.

I did some research into the weather and snow depth in Bristol for Fri 17th to Chrismas day. There was no snow on Friday 17th, you can see that from C.C.T.V images of Jo and the Hogs Head footage. The snow came sometime after midight in the early hours of Saturday 18th. There was only half an inch covering by morning. That snow stayed on the ground all week.

This post has more info, hope it helps.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #5

 

[Lynn R]

It really shows how much the media gets wrong when you note how many of them said that VT had left the country on the 18th/19th or 20th December. None of them ever provided a named source for that information but printed it anyway. Now, the official spokesman for VT's family says that VT and TM spent Xmas with TM's family and then went to Holland on 28th, joining their family for New Year and both returned to UK on 2nd January.

So it seems VT was in the UK for the whole time between 17th - 27th December but nobody has said where he was yet. The only reported sighting during that time seems to be about 7pm on 17th December when he came home on his bike and spoke to CJ.

5 days before his arrest, VT told some journalists that he was away the night JY went missing but he didn't give a date for that night. There are Dutch press rumours that a witness can account for his whereabouts but I haven't seen that in the UK press.

Probably fairly obvious but I think you must take EVERYTHING the press say regarding this case with a pinch of salt. I know people have stated previously that the press wouldn't say 'blah, blah, blah' for fear of getting sued. I really don't think the press are that bothered about that sort of thing, they print untruths about celebs etc EVERY day. They know fine well what they can lie about and what they can't.

 

[bees]

Probably fairly obvious but I think you must take EVERYTHING the press say regarding this case with a pinch of salt. I know people have stated previously that the press wouldn't say 'blah, blah, blah' for fear of getting sued. I really don't think the press are that bothered about that sort of thing, they print untruths about celebs etc EVERY day. They know fine well what they can lie about and what they can't.

Yes I agree. Buckets of salt in some cases!

 

[Cerebral]

Hi Everyone, my first post.. but a very long time reader who splits my time between places on both sides of the Pond. A few thought's/surmises...

A word of caution... the UK 'red tops' seem to be consistently getting a disproportionate amount of 'facts' completely wrong with this case... (not that a newspaper getting any fact wrong in major news items is acceptable. The broadsheets are only just slightly better. For instance, dates about NUA's supposed travels have been moved around every which way possible by the papers. I would stick with what the NUA family spokesman has now come out with (Dec 24 evening & Dec 25th) with TM's family in Cambridgeshire, and then Holland December 28 - January 2nd), because presumably there are rock solid alibis, evidence of travel for them to put it out there to the media. As relates to NUA and this case, it is probably one of the few items we can probably rely on. It would certainly rule out NUA able to dump JY early Dec 25th which has been a common consensus in most quarters.

The Sun and the rest of the red tops very suggestively for days now have bandied the idea that a sobbing woman calling in anonymously was TM and that the annonymous call was the catalyst for the NUA arrest. TM's family & NUA's family have now repeatedly declared that TM was not the caller and that they are a still together. NUA spending X'mas at the M family home in Cambridgeshire and NUA & TM's appearances together in their temporary home down Aberdeen Road point corroborate that (a convenience store owner in the Aberdeen Rd locality described their recent visits to the shop there). So NUA & TM were certainly living & holidaying together long after JY's death up until NUA's arrest. Last Friday, day of his arrest TM turned up for work. TM's friends have described the state of shock TM has been in.

I think all indications are the caller was not TM, but a female who was aware of at least a purely circumstantial/temporal connection between NUA & JY's murder...and a good candidate is LW in London - sister to EW. (EW is TM's colleague and friend who is in Chile on holiday. NUA & TM moved to the property LW & EW own, owing to the constant police activity at No 44.. and/or TM's discomfiture at being next door to an unsolved murder).

My belief is all crime scene findings.. JY's flat state, contents, JY's post mortem results point towards someone known to JY or resident at 44 as being the murderer. The emotional anonymous phone call by someone terribly moved by the very emotional & touching appeal may simply have been the desperate spark for LE who were at wit's end trying to solve the case having narrowed down the murderer somewhat to No 44 resident/known person, but have no solid case or evidence. Right now on twitter and elsewhere, information is spreading that NUA's team have found a rock solid witness to corroborate NUA's movements for Dec 17 night and make the whole idea of NUA the murder suspect moot.

If that news is true, IMO it is beginning to look increasingly like any tip & some circumstantial evidence would probably have landed any No 44 resident or JY acquaintance with an arrest... because absolutely nothing has come out indicating that a rock solid case against NUA was built beforehand or added to since the arrest (which was probably what the police were hoping for).

The verbage used in the charging is very interesting.. it certainly makes it plausible that NUA, much like CJ/LL may not have been 100% forthcoming or frank for whatever reason...likely not to 'muddy the waters' or other reasons unrelated to JY in their statements/alibis to LE.

It is looking like LE are probably persisting with this NUA prosecution effort because it looks like their best bet for now, and hoping that ongoing forensic efforts, including enhanced DNA testing will prove them right & get them though. Sub consciously it also gives them some breathing room because LE were certainly under a lot of pressure, were looking desperate and their public image was taking a battering a month on in to the case.

IMO, in recent criminal cases on both sides of the Atlantic if there was anyone who deserved to be treated in line with the old adage, ''totally innocent until proven guilty' it should be NUA. It would be tragic if that's true and LE's stubborn focus and hope to muddle this one through will actually delay justice for JY.

 

[bees]

I did some research into the weather and snow depth in Bristol for Fri 17th to Chrismas day. There was no snow on Friday 17th, you can see that from C.C.T.V images of Jo and the Hogs Head footage. The snow came sometime after midight in the early hours of Saturday 18th. There was only half an inch covering by morning. That snow stayed on the ground all week.

This post has more info, hope it helps.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #5

Thanks for this Phill.
Doing some more googling, it seems there was 5cm overnight (17th/18th) in the city in some reports but it sounds patchy eg 12cm in south Bristol but 4cm in north with places outside reporting more snow with drifts due to being high up and windy. There was also more snow the following night.

 

[Lynn R]

Hi Everyone, my first post.. but a very long time reader who splits my time between places on both sides of the Pond. A few thought's/surmises...

A word of caution... the UK 'red tops' seem to be consistently getting a disproportionate amount of 'facts' completely wrong with this case... (not that a newspaper getting any fact wrong in major news items is acceptable. The broadsheets are only just slightly better. For instance, dates about NUA's supposed travels have been moved around every which way possible by the papers. I would stick with what the NUA family spokesman has now come out with (Dec 24 evening & Dec 25th) with TM's family in Cambridgeshire, and then Holland December 28 - January 2nd), because presumably there are rock solid alibis, evidence of travel for them to put it out there to the media. As relates to NUA and this case, it is probably one of the few items we can probably rely on. It would certainly rule out NUA able to dump JY early Dec 25th which has been a common consensus in most quarters.

The Sun and the rest of the red tops very suggestively for days now have bandied the idea that a sobbing woman calling in anonymously was TM and that the annonymous call was the catalyst for the NUA arrest. TM's family & NUA's family have now repeatedly declared that TM was not the caller and that they are a still together. NUA spending X'mas at the M family home in Cambridgeshire and NUA & TM's appearances together in their temporary home down Aberdeen Road point corroborate that (a convenience store owner in the Aberdeen Rd locality described their recent visits to the shop there). So NUA & TM were certainly living & holidaying together long after JY's death up until NUA's arrest. Last Friday, day of his arrest TM turned up for work. TM's friends have described the state of shock TM has been in.

I think all indications are the caller was not TM, but a female who was aware of at least a purely circumstantial/temporal connection between NUA & JY's murder...and a good candidate is LW in London - sister to EW. (EW is TM's colleague and friend who is in Chile on holiday. NUA & TM moved to the property LW & EW own, owing to the constant police activity at No 44.. and/or TM's discomfiture at being next door to an unsolved murder).

My belief is all crime scene findings.. JY's flat state, contents, JY's post mortem results point towards someone known to JY or resident at 44 as being the murderer. The emotional anonymous phone call by someone terribly moved by the very emotional & touching appeal may simply have been the desperate spark for LE who were at wit's end trying to solve the case having narrowed down the murderer somewhat to No 44 resident/known person, but have no solid case or evidence. Right now on twitter and elsewhere, information is spreading that NUA's team have found a rock solid witness to corroborate NUA's movements for Dec 17 night and make the whole idea of NUA the murder suspect moot.

If that news is true, IMO it is beginning to look increasingly like any tip & some circumstantial evidence would probably have landed any No 44 resident or JY acquaintance with an arrest... because absolutely nothing has come out indicating that a rock solid case against NUA was built beforehand or added to since the arrest (which was probably what the police were hoping for).

The verbage used in the charging is very interesting.. it certainly makes it plausible that NUA, much like CJ/LL may not have been 100% forthcoming or frank for whatever reason...likely not to 'muddy the waters' or other reasons unrelated to JY in their statements/alibis to LE.

It is looking like LE are probably persisting with this NUA prosecution effort because it looks like their best bet for now, and hoping that ongoing forensic efforts, including enhanced DNA testing will prove them right & get them though. Sub consciously it also gives them some breathing room because LE were certainly under a lot of pressure, were looking desperate and their public image was taking a battering a month on in to the case.

IMO, in recent criminal cases on both sides of the Atlantic if there was anyone who deserved to be treated in line with the old adage, ''totally innocent until proven guilty' it should be NUA. It would be tragic if that's true and LE's stubborn focus and hope to muddle this one through will actually delay justice for JY.

Also how do we really know it was a woman who called the police emotional or not? Or thats what even sparked the arrest?
I agree that the police may have a very weak case. Incredibly foolish if they do and the case falls apart. That man's life will be ruined. Am I right in saying the CPS can only ADVISE whether or not to proceed with charges based on the evidence supplied to them by the police?

 

[bees]

What's the likely evidence the police have to make this charge?

It can't just be lack of an alibi or being in the same building! These days, wouldn't they have to have DNA evidence or CCTV or witness reports? I'm stumped as to what they can have to make this charge of murder, which they clearly didn't have a few weeks ago.

 

[saggymoon]

i don't think vt is the killer, jmo

 

[wfgodot]

Welcome to WS, Cerebral.