VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

[JosieJo]

Here's the view from the first of the three benches you'd encounter. The consensus seems to be that this was the one which forensics focused on early in the investigation. This should illustrate the extent to which the river is hidden by the treeline and gradient of the embankment.

Can I ask ...your view from bench ...would you say the line of sight takes you to roughly where I've put a yellow mark on the map? Thanks

 

[Vermont24]

Can I ask ...your view from bench ...would you say the line of sight takes you to roughly where I've put a yellow mark on the map? Thanks

View attachment 283051

Just beyond that, to where the path forks.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Can I ask ...your view from bench ...would you say the line of sight takes you to roughly where I've put a yellow mark on the map? Thanks

View attachment 283051

What’s the relevance of the yellow mark, Josie?

 

[tedtink]

I didn't specify that he'd be stressed, although he may have been if she had been screaming and he was afraid someone might hear and come and investigate. The point we're discussing is whether someone might not realise the consequences of placing a hand over someone's mouth. And yes, sexual excitement is another kind of distraction that could overwhelm someone to that degree.

Sure, I realise what we're discussing.
Originally your post said that he might not know that put putting his hand over her mouth would kill her, because of "adrenaline running high".
My point was that adrenaline is a hormone released at times of stress, so I can't see how that applies to PR during rape.

I wouldn't want to justify a possible 'smothering' by suggesting it could be the result of his 'sexual excitement' in this case, so really feel we might be going down a rabbit hole here.

 

[JosieJo]

What’s the relevance of the yellow mark, Josie?

It was only to try and vidualise how much of the actual distance overall was in view

 

[Tortoise]

Just beyond that, to where the path forks.

Would SA have a view of that path from his window, or more towards the lake? I wonder roughly where 150 metres from his house places the first scream.

 

[JosieJo]

Just beyond that, to where the path forks.

Thank you

Can I ask as someone seeing the river with hindsight...which bits make you feel she is unlikely to have fell in ?

 

[JosieJo]

Would SA have a view of that path from his window, or more towards the lake? I wonder roughly where 150 metres from his house places the first scream.

I remember his testimony saying his window looked over the skatepark to some degree

 

[Tortoise]

I remember his testimony saying his window looked over the skatepark to some degree

Is that the light blue areas on the map?

 

[Vermont24]

Would SA have a view of that path from his window, or more towards the lake? I wonder roughly where 150 metres from his house places the first scream.

He'll have a view of the path, but not of the lake itself.

 

[NorthernSoul]

The distinction between plausible and probable using inference is discussed here The reasonable doubt standard as inference to the best explanation.
As I read it, it IS possible to get to BARD as being “sure” varies between anything over 50% and 100% likelihood in previous surveys of jurors thus preponderance of evidence/balance of possibility can translate to being sure even if that isn’t 100% probability.

I accept that I get to that point partly through having read lots on the forensic psychology of sex offenders which the jury aren’t allowed to do.

Thank you. This has made me more uncertain! It seems that BARD is a very contentious subject with different schools of thought. If I have read it rightly, one school of thought believe that constructing a story using available evidence, it is acceptable to determine guilt based on the most plausible scenario. Another school of thought does not find this sufficient. A bit like on this forum really! I don't have any legal training but have been a juror twice. I would never have convicted someone on the basis of a theoretical scenario without what I would consider concrete proof. But it seems maybe I should have! From what I read it is kind of saying that if a former murderer, now released from prison, happened to be in the vicinity of a murder, in the absence of any other suspect you could say they probably did it and find them guilty?

 

[Vermont24]

Is that the light blue areas on the map?

Yes indeed.

 

[Legally Bland]

Would SA have a view of that path from his window, or more towards the lake? I wonder roughly where 150 metres from his house places the first scream.

Roughly 150m.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes indeed.

So I'm not sure which window he was looking out of or if there are windows on the side of the house facing the yeast factory, but do you know for sure he had a view of both the path and the skatepark?

It's difficult to see the house with the trees in the way on google maps.

 

[Tortoise]

Roughly 150m.

View attachment 283053

Thank you LB.

 

[NottReds50]

So I'm not sure which window he was looking out of or if there are windows on the side of the house facing the yeast factory, but do you know for sure he had a view of both the path and the skatepark?

It's difficult to see the house with the trees in the way on google maps.

Only looks like 1 that backs onto the park, looking down the barrel of the path

 

[Cherwell]

Sure, I realise what we're discussing.
Originally your post said that he might not know that put putting his hand over her mouth would kill her, because of "adrenaline running high".
My point was that adrenaline is a hormone released at times of stress, so I can't see how that applies to PR during rape.

I wouldn't want to justify a possible 'smothering' by suggesting it could be the result of his 'sexual excitement' in this case, so really feel we might be going down a rabbit hole here.

I'm certainly not "justifying" it. Merely looking at situations where it is feasible that someone might asphyxiate a person in this manner without consciously intending to kill them. Which was what you expressed doubt about.

 

[Tortoise]

Only looks like 1 that backs onto the park, looking down the barrel of the path

Brilliant! That's likely the window.

 

[NorthernSoul]

On a completely different tack; I was thinking to myself what it would be like for the jury as they are doing their service during a pandemic and I found this article which explains what it will have been like. I was wondering whether they would have had to be tested or to stay in a hotel but it seems not. It will have been a very different experience to the usual though.
My experience of jury service on a trial in a socially distanced court during the coronavirus pandemic (inews.co.uk)

 

[Stumpyaura]

On a completely different tack; I was thinking to myself what it would be like for the jury as they are doing their service during a pandemic and I found this article which explains what it will have been like. I was wondering whether they would have had to be tested or to stay in a hotel but it seems not. It will have been a very different experience to the usual though.
My experience of jury service on a trial in a socially distanced court during the coronavirus pandemic (inews.co.uk)

Thanks for this, I've been wondering how it works at the moment