Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by cybervampira, Feb 2, 2019.
Agreed, I’m sure he’s got lucky and her body just wasn’t spotted on the river hull.
I was fairly certain before from comparing his legs and stance, from some online photos of him, to the Spidercam man. But it wasn’t until watching him entering the courtroom, walking, albeit for a short distance, seeing his gait. I just knew it was him.
Is it possible Libby crossed the road to the bench dangerously ? That GB maybe nearly ran her over and that’s why he stopped ? Maybe he had to slam on and poor Libby in her already intoxicated/freezing state became further upset leading to the description of ‘distressed’ ? Maybe GB witnessed a near collision with someone else. Although I also agree with what Cherwell said about LE using the term as a pc way to describe an intoxicated vulnerable person.
So GB helped Libby to the bench to safety ? I know there was upset as to why an ambulance specifically wasn’t called, was Libby maybe slightly injured ? Perhaps I’m just looking too far into it and calling an ambulance would be standard for an intoxicated young girl who didn’t have a phone on her to phone friends for help under the supervision of GB.
I strongly suspect PR was in and out of his car a few times back and forth to the bench - watching Libby and/or trying to coax her. I think after her prolonged period in the freezing cold, being distressed (for whatever reason) & inability to think rationally as she normally would due to the alcohol, she either gave in to PR’s ‘kind’ offer of a lift home or was trying to walk away from his persistent bothering to another location ...
I still can’t see anything clearly on spider cam .. other than PR listening out, watching & waiting
I'm no expert, but going by previous cases there are a few things off the top of my head that the post mortem might have shown which could indicate a non-natural death:
She didn't drown (ie was already deceased when entered water)
She had blunt force trauma injuries caused in life
She had stab / gunshot / other obvious "murder" wounds
She had a fractured hyoid bone (neck) which is a strong indicator of strangulation and not commonly done accidentally
She had ligature marks on her neck
She had other flesh or bone wounds
She had traces of poisoning (though tox reports would not be back yet)
I'm sure others will have alternative ideas to add to this macabre list! I'm assuming some of those will be harder to ascertain given the length of time Libby was in water, but it's amazing how they can determine whether injuries were caused during life or after death.
I am hopeful that forensic ecology can determine which bits of water Libby has been in. For example there could be traces of mud/plants in her lungs or stomach which are only found near the park part of the river Hull.
Libby gets to her house at 11.29. At 11.45 grey Beard helps her at the junction of Beresford and Beverley road. Very close to the bench where she's last seen at 12.09.
Meanwhile at Spidercam we're told the car is parked for 20 minutes. We see the last 10 minutes and relevant timings which suggests it must have been parked there by about 11.49? Assuming time to turn it round and park.
If he'd seen her whilst cruising around - at a point where he was sure enough she'd end up at the bench - how long would it have taken him to get to Haworth and Park? The bollards prevent him going directly there.
If he'd seen her at an earlier point in her journey from house to bench it wouldn't have been clear she'd go to the bench rather than the pub (turn right) or dominoes.
Where roughly would he have seen her to reasonsbly be sure she would be near the bench and how quickly could he have got there? Would it not have been possible to grab her in Beresford or Wellesley?
My opinion, and it's only my opinion, is that Haworth street is a good place to look for and follow students rather than to park after having seen them. I'd love to know where he parked for his Wellesley road wank on the 12th. I'd also love to know what time on a Saturday it was. Very early morning and it could have been after tailing women that got off the late Friday night bus from the Welly.
I followed the river Hull all the way down from the park to the estuary yet again last night on maps ..
If Libby entered in the park (I do feel it’s more likely) I think it’s absolutely extraordinary and such a sad case of bad luck that no one spotted her - it runs right through the middle of Hull ;(
No you’re not, me neither
I can see what looks like a bag being thrown into the back seat of the car. I can’t see a girl giving her bag to a stranger unless she’s had a fall of some sort.
That would tie in with why GB has stopped as he saw her on the floor.
She didn’t fancy being helped by him for whatever reason.
It is surprising how quickly she gets into the car with a ‘taxi’ with little conversation , especially when she has no money and she has to explain that to the ‘taxi driver’.
He looks like an innocent student though so he may have just offered to drive her home. I think when she realised she was locked out of the house again he chose to take her to oak fields.
Maybe he offered to take her for a joint. Would be a good way to get someone out of the car in a park without screaming. In reality, he would have had to drag her out of that car otherwise ,
I think from looking more closely at google maps, it is very reasonable to believe PR saw LS interacting with GB or right after and 4 minutes would have been plenty of time to drive to Howarth, turn around and park.
That’s so interesting Joelle. The way he slouches slightly forward with his hands in his pockets does look v similar to the photos shared of him by MSM. But then I concluded lots of males in their mid twenties probably stand like that. With you having seen him it’s really interesting that you feel so sure.
I wondered if he had stopped at the traffic lights on the opposite side of the road and had a full view of her conversation with GB, may even have seen him drive off. Then, like you say, a quick right turn at the junction and round to Haworth for a closer look.
@Joelle88 what do you think of running man in the Crode CCTV? For me it does not seem to match up with PR. I do not know why but he seems to reserved not a runner/ Not sure why I think this.
IMO, this is the scenario that makes the most sense.
This is why I feel the comments about nobody calling an ambulance to help Libby are so crucial. Why would you call an ambulance for somebody who is drunk? As a friend of Libby’s you might say ‘I can’t believe nobody looked after her’ or ‘I can’t believe nobody stayed with her’ in that state, but would you really feel that an ambulance would need to attend? IMO that would only be necessary if she was sick or injured. I think GB stopped because she had hurt herself or had fallen in the road, not just because she was stumbling around drunk.
Yes. He then waits 10 minutes until we get to what we're shown. I'd say he's clearly walked towards the bench. I wonder what else had happened that they don't show us?
I think running man is slightly too tall to be Pawel, although the footage is pretty sketchy so it’s hard to be certain.
This is quite an interesting virtual view of the river Hull from the estuary up to the park (approx 2:20):
That interaction with GB could have been more of an altercation. Who’s to say they haven’t had a fall out over her nearly getting run over by him.... Nobody really stops to take home drunk people. If we did we’d be stopping to help hookers every i night you drive through hull. I’d say she fell or there was an argument as she stepped out in front of GB.
And then of course , it’s PR to the rescue to help her when she’s just had an incident .
I believe that’s how he first saw her, driving down Beverley Road, spotted her, turned right on Cottingham Road and right again onto Haworth, down to near the dead end. Incredibly cunning.