UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Ruthbullock]

Meant to say I'm not expecting anything too out if place in her past tbh. No torturing animals etc. Even the police said she was "beige" and I think that will stand as true. Her friends as well never noticed anything and I believe them in their observations. Whatever is up with it whatever she was getting out of it peaked in those years and was probably suppressed her entire life. I do think it's been there a long time though. I do wonder if her actions weren't what she was working so hard for all that time.

Might be interesting from an academic point of view that her persona and everything was totally fake. The definition of a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

Was she “beige”- many people are now stating she stood out to them, lacked empathy, failed her course- is the narrative altering either consciously or unconsciously? Potentially she was “beige”- but then the people stating otherwise in the inquest are not being entirely honest. I have no idea which it is, as I can’t help feeling everyone is more worried about their own reputations than being transparent.

 

[Ruthbullock]

2013 Morphine OD error

Lucy Letby gave baby overdose two years before murders

Lucy Letby was reportedly "unhappy" at being told she could no longer administer controlled drugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Lucy Letby gave a baby 10 times the prescribed dose of morphine "in error" two years before her killing spree began, a public inquiry has heard.

The nurse was then unhappy at being told she could no longer administer controlled drugs at the Countess of Chester Hospital after the incident in July 2013.
Letby received extra training after the incident.

Yvonne Farmer, who was practice development nurse at the time, told the inquiry at Liverpool Town Hall it was a "very serious error"
The mistake was spotted quickly and the baby suffered no ill-effects, the inquiry heard.
Ms Farmer said Letby was not far into her nursing career at the time, but was outside the period of supervision required by the Nursing and Midwifery Council.

Part of the hospital's response to the incident was to make Letby have extra training with Ms Farmer.
She said: "Lucy Letby was unhappy that she had to refrain from administering controlled drugs [for a period of time]."
When asked if it was normal for a nurse to be unhappy about not administering controlled drugs [in those circumstances], Ms Farmer replied: "Maybe not."
She agreed when asked whether it was important to "recognise when you've made a mistake".
'

I wonder what the change of staff was between 2013 where this was noticed rapidly and steps put in place to prevent it happening again, compared to the actual staffing during the timeline she was prosecuted over?

 

[Anxala]

Was she “beige”- many people are now stating she stood out to them, lacked empathy, failed her course- is the narrative altering either consciously or unconsciously? Potentially she was “beige”- but then the people stating otherwise in the inquest are not being entirely honest. I have no idea which it is, as I can’t help feeling everyone is more worried about their own reputations than being transparent.

Of course a lot of people are covering their backs now but those that are doing so, in the main, are the people that were in a position to take position action to stop LL in her murdering tracks but failed abysmally to do so. Those are the dishonest ones, as is crystal clear from their egregiously self-serving, back-tracking testimonies in this Inquiry.

Those not in a position to do so at the time are the ones that are coming across to me as the honest people here, the ones that this Inquiry has finally given a voice to. The ones that had no one to listen to their concerns at the time and are now having their rightful say.

So no, not everyone is lying. And I'm surprised, if you're actually following this Inquiry, that you can't see who's suspect and who's not?

 

[Ruthbullock]

Or Lucy ketb

I honestly wonder if EP thinks LL is innocent, or if she's just one of those people who never admits she was wrong, ever.

Or Lucy Letby isn’t innocent- but the consultants were also a sham

 

[Sweeper2000]

Was she “beige”- many people are now stating she stood out to them, lacked empathy, failed her course- is the narrative altering either consciously or unconsciously? Potentially she was “beige”- but then the people stating otherwise in the inquest are not being entirely honest. I have no idea which it is, as I can’t help feeling everyone is more worried about their own reputations than being transparent.

I haven't heard anyone state she was anything other than as a baseline was quiet, reserved and anything but remarkable. Background noise,she wasn't dominant, extravagant and always seems at best lukewarm. The only things noticeable about her behaviour openly is when she was doing weird stuff like talking excitedly about deaths, seeming to buzz around dead babies these instances of inappropriately calm behaviour in times of crisis for example that retrospectively sickeningly cool dismissal to baby E mum. The only standout bits is the examples of her behaviour that were a part of all of the damning evidence we heard. I know some staff said they found her detached demeanour disconcerting but t
We were not given that as a picture of her In the trial. We got it anyway but that's besides the point. I don't think EP favoritism alone is an example of the shining nurse we were told of.

 

[ColourPurple]

However, I remember @squish going to see LL on the stand and describing how convincing and confident her way of talking is and that you have to stop and really listen to what she’s saying to realise that she’s speaking rubbish. I don’t want to misquote Squish but the search facility isn’t working for me to find the original post.

My point being, in these interviews Powell doesn’t sound the brightest and I expect it would’ve been very easy for LL to pull the wool over her eyes , as well as playing on her Powell’s inbuilt inferiority complex and “us and them” mentality where the consultants were concerned .

The other thing I picked up on from the feedback notes about LL when she was a student nurse was that one of the “faults” they highlighted was that she wasn’t very good at dealing with unexpected situations.

If LLs way of addressing this was to create situations where she WOULD react well and in a calm controlled manner ( because she’d bloody caused them) then she would look like she had some amazing sixth sense when it came to picking up on small signs that a baby was seriously ill and raising the alarm to the on call doctors. To Powell, this handling of unexpected situations may well have made her look like a really good nurse, “creme de la creme”, who picked up on stuff that other nurses didn’t ( obviously we know now it was because she knew what she was looking for … at)

Just replying to my own post as I’ve now found @squish post about how LL’s way of talking can be very convincing (and may be helpful in understanding how Rees, Powell, de Beger, Chambers et al were possibly taken in by her… though obviously doesn’t excuse Rees and De Beger overstepping the mark with group WhatsApp’s and texts with kisses )

To be clear the post I’m going to quote now is from @squish, not me, I’m not sure if Squish posts here anymore but it’s about Squish’s impressions of LL when she was on the stand. I’ll link to the full post as @squish then answers further questions, which people might find interesting .

Squish says :

“Lucy came across much better than I thought she would. I have seen her described as cocky, sulky, combative, robotic and petulant, but I just thought she seemed very articulate, confident and assertive. This could potentially be because I was seeing her on a different day to those previous descriptions.

In person, she has the capability of sounding very persuasive and is adept at creating extra meaning or impression just using the tone of her voice. It’s not what she says but how she says it. It’s only when you listen to what she’s actually saying - and sometimes what she fails to say - that you can hear her answers are sometimes inadequate, inappropriate or contradictory. She comes across as assertive and unflappable, even when massively caught out. She will say one thing, then say another thing in the next breath, and say both with absolute confidence as if they are both true. This is why it must have been such a big deal that she fell to pieces after her Freudian slip last week - she just seems unfazed by all questioning.

I can honestly see why, if guilty, she was so good at hiding herself. She has an attractive, soothing speaking voice and is so good at speaking for herself.

She comes across as much worse in print, because that only shows you the content of what she says, not how she says it. The “I don’t recalls” etc don’t seem as repetitive in person.

Some things are missed out in reporting. Nick Johnson makes her read out all the messages and nurse notes out loud. There is also a lot she agrees with (in terms of the nursing notes, timeline etc). She says “yes?” often with a tone to imply “yes, and where are you going with this?”

At one point, she did come across as bitchy, when she said “I had nothing to be jealous of”. Also, I don’t think it was reported but the messages to another nurse around the time of Baby J’s collapse included the other unnamed nurse bitching to Lucy about the nurse called Ailsa. I got the impression they’d bitched about her before.

Nick Johnson was absolutely gleeful at getting Lucy to admit she must have been at Baby K’s cot-side just before a collapse, due to a particular record she entered which would have required getting some papers from her cot. The telling off he got for “belittling” her followed lots of triumphant exchanges. I didn’t perceive that it was belittling. I think he has to emphasise when she’s caught out in a lie because she is so unflappable and doesn’t act at all like she’s been caught.

I think this catching her out about being by Baby K’s cot was the point when a lot of the viewing room sniggered, but I can’t be sure. It was very difficult to remember details, even from one afternoon, and it’s worrying the jury have to remember 10 months worth. It was also quite boring if I’m honest. There was lots of going through nurse notes and nurse allocations to ascertain where everyone was at what point. It was hard to follow at times, but the point was that Lucy was there at or before collapses. I think NJ should have taken more effort to sum up the timelines and main points for the jury.

When discussing the altered handwritten times in the nursing notes, Lucy said “we” about writing them in. NJ absolutely jumped on it and said “WE?!””


UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

 

[Parker Knoll]

I saw her on the stand for the infamous Baby I cross examination ( I knew what I was looking for - at ) moment.
I have seen plenty of defendants give evidence over the years but nobody compares with how she presented in the box to me anyway.
Unless you saw it it’s really hard to explain, cold, robotic, calculating manipulative are a few words I would use but all delivered in almost a whisper.
I think I said at the time on here, I had no desire to go back and be in her “ airspace “

 

[Sweeper2000]

I saw her on the stand for the infamous Baby I cross examination ( I knew what I was looking for - at ) moment.
I have seen plenty of defendants give evidence over the years but nobody compares with how she presented in the box to me anyway.
Unless you saw it it’s really hard to explain, cold, robotic, calculating manipulative are a few words I would use but all delivered in almost a whisper.
I think I said at the time on here, I had no desire to go back and be in her “ airspace “

I've noticed some things in similar situations. I'm wondering though if you would agree with a few more descriptive and perhaps illuminating words. That voice of hers when it falls on the ears does it sound thin? Like it's said in a way to be appealing but nothing else? Almost hollow like a nice sound that just does last very long? As soon as its over it's over and you end up disappointed, there is nothing about it that hits the bell and that bell doesn't vibe for long at all but feels like it should? Might sound strange but I've noticed In my experience in life that shallow people too often put all emphasis on appearance and a discerning ear can pick up on it. Lacking depth and richness of tone that comes from the heart. Not wanting to be in that same airspace I think may come from the hollow ring of a shallow but sickly sweet tone.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Not sure tbh sweep - not wanting to be in her airspace is simply how I felt being in the same room as her so to speak. It’s sad and depressing considering the subject matter.
Some people went daily apparently but I’m not sure why they would want to but each to their own.
She spoke well, didn’t elaborate just answered the question ( which in fairness is the correct thing to do ) but she could be telling you the moon was made of green cheese but would say it in a way that was quite plausible if you get my drift.
I can see how she pulled the wool over the years let’s put it that way.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not sure tbh sweep - not wanting to be in her airspace is simply how I felt being in the same room as her so to speak. It’s sad and depressing considering the subject matter.
Some people went daily apparently but I’m not sure why they would want to but each to their own.
She spoke well, didn’t elaborate just answered the question ( which in fairness is the correct thing to do ) but she could be telling you the moon was made of green cheese but would say it in a way that was quite plausible if you get my drift.
I can see how she pulled the wool over the years let’s put it that way.

Really does sound like presentation but nothing else.

 

[Highlandspring]

I haven't heard anyone state she was anything other than as a baseline was quiet, reserved and anything but remarkable. Background noise,she wasn't dominant, extravagant and always seems at best lukewarm. The only things noticeable about her behaviour openly is when she was doing weird stuff like talking excitedly about deaths, seeming to buzz around dead babies these instances of inappropriately calm behaviour in times of crisis for example that retrospectively sickeningly cool dismissal to baby E mum. The only standout bits is the examples of her behaviour that were a part of all of the damning evidence we heard. I know some staff said they found her detached demeanour disconcerting but t
We were not given that as a picture of her In the trial. We got it anyway but that's besides the point. I don't think EP favoritism alone is an example of the shining nurse we were told of.

It's funny how we all see different things. In the CS2C video the schoolmate said she was narcissistic (often broke into other people's conversations turning them round to herself, leaving aside the miracle child thing) lied a lot, shared her unpopular views and 'had a meltdown' when people called her out on them, had a superiority complex, grassed on people (teachers pet), and cried for herself. She helped people out when people didn't need helping out.

I've noticed some things in similar situations. I'm wondering though if you would agree with a few more descriptive and perhaps illuminating words. That voice of hers when it falls on the ears does it sound thin? Like it's said in a way to be appealing but nothing else? Almost hollow like a nice sound that just does last very long? As soon as its over it's over and you end up disappointed, there is nothing about it that hits the bell and that bell doesn't vibe for long at all but feels like it should? Might sound strange but I've noticed In my experience in life that shallow people too often put all emphasis on appearance and a discerning ear can pick up on it. Lacking depth and richness of tone that comes from the heart. Not wanting to be in that same airspace I think may come from the hollow ring of a shallow but sickly sweet tone.

According to @CS2C who of course attended several times she sounded pretty much as she does in the few seconds of police interview tape. As @ParkerKnoll also describes.
There's a CS2C 37 minute video (well just audio) of him and @squish from about a year ago exchanging their reflections of her in the box. I won't post it here, it's called In Court with Lucy Letby on his YT channel.

Basically it echoes what's been said, but they both give interesting insights.

 

[cottonweaver]

Also re the new book on LL....
Appreciate this is the Inquiry thread- not the LL criminal cases thread - but has anyone bought the new book? ( Judith Moritz book) If you've ordered, please do say whether it's any good.

I'd also love to credit others, on other fora, who are following the Inquiry- so that most of the LL online discussion isn't dominated by the Letby truthers- but understandably, the rules mean I can't link & credit. Anyway, well done ladies!
This link is from the T team so h/t to them:

Fred West and other famous cases I have my doubts about, by David Davis MP

HELLO, Double Dave here. Despite Brexit cementing my reputation for being thick as mince, I’m 90 per cent sure Lucy Letby is innocent. I could also help these obvious miscarriages of justice.

www.thedailymash.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

- Yes from me.

Certainly from me as well. Guilty as charged.

 

[katydid23]

Her parents weren't/aren't particularly wealthy or influential. Or at least nothing in the public domain suggests they were/are. Their house is nothing special, she didn't go to private school (and from what I can tell, if they'd been able to afford that then she definitely would have done), and I don't see any of the other trappings of wealth there. They certainly weren't poor, though.

We can only guess at why this was allowed but I'd imagine it's something to do with the whole you have to be nice and respectful to everyone these days regardless of how much of a total muppet they are. If you don't act like that then you get all sorts of claims for harassment and bullying levelled at you. It's the whole ..everyone's opinion is as valid and as worthy of respect as everyone else's.. when it clearly isn't!

I'd surmise that if she hadn't been allowed to involve her parents that the hospital would be worried that they'd be facing claims for unfair treatment or even a constructive dismissal case. And, let's face it - they lied to her about why she was moved to admin for starters so they're already on the wrong foot on that score. Hell, they even fabricated a bogus "secondment" system to make it look normal and that everyone was going to have to do it. They should have told her from the outset that certain concerns about her practice had been raised and that she was on garden leave until it was sorted.

The first sign of her wanting involve people from outside of work or a union rep/mediator should have resulted in a firm "no"* but they'd already messed things up by this point.

*My personal choice of terminology would have been markedly different were one of my staff to try that - a short phrase ending with "off", most likely.

I agree with all the above.

I will add why I think the parents made such an impact. I think the father was incensed by the 'unfair, false allegations' being made against his perfect daughter. He was very vocal, hard headed and I think he probably threatened to bring the heat against COC, in terms of tv and press.

And the mother was very vocal in her own ways---kind of emotionally over amped, histrionics. So the combination of the two of them, plus manipulative Lucy, supported by her Union Rep and the head of Nursing---that is a formidable opponent.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Remember to stay on topic please. The opening post of this thread is a good synopsis of what is up for discussion.

Thanks!
Mad

 

[katydid23]

Re the new reports about dislodged breathing tubes during Letby's training at Liverpool Women’s Hospital in 2012 and 2015.

Lucy Letby may have harmed more babies in her care, new evidence suggests

BBC Panorama sees documents which show a baby's blood sugar dropped soon after Letby came on duty.

www.bbc.co.uk

' In addition, a retrospective analysis showed that babies’ breathing tubes became dislodged on 40% of Letby’s shifts. The norm per nurse per baby was 1%...... In one case, from November 2012, a baby boy collapsed and water was subsequently discovered in his breathing tube – a highly irregular occurrence. The clinical notes confirm that the nurse looking after him was Letby.'

I notice that Nurse ZC says that LWH do audits on dislodgements , Coch never had such protocols.

Maybe Letby was unaware of LWH protocols?

View attachment 539719

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-14-October-2024.pdf

' In addition, a retrospective analysis showed that babies’ breathing tubes became dislodged on 40% of Letby’s shifts. The norm per nurse per baby was 1%...... In one case, from November 2012, a baby boy collapsed and water was subsequently discovered in his breathing tube – a highly irregular occurrence. The clinical notes confirm that the nurse looking after him was Letby.'

That^^^ is shocking but I guess it shouldn't be. We all knew it made no sense that LL would just suddenly out of the blue start killing babies. I think we all questioned if Baby A was really the first victim.

Water in a babies breathing tube? One of Lucy's babies collapsed because of water in his breathing tube? Did they look into HOW that could have happened?

 

[Kemug]

I doubt if Lucy's friends actually liked her much. From all the texting between them all, they would all have known perfectly well that she was very likely to text something less than nice about them if they said or did something she didn't like. So they made sure to keep on the right side of her. It's also noticeable that they never went on holiday with her, she only went with her parents or by herself.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Water in a babies breathing tube? One of Lucy's babies collapsed because of water in his breathing tube? Did they look into HOW that could have happened?

I wonder if this will turn out to be another one of those things that sounds like it could have a normal explanation (condensation from the heated, humidified circuit collects in a low part of the circuit, then the baby's normal movement leads to accidental flooding of the very tiny breathing tube by essentially a few big drops of water) but the details are so bizarre as to make the usual explanation implausible (eg, a completely abnormal amount of fluid was suctioned out after the fact... THIS IS SPECULATION). I await further information.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I doubt if Lucy's friends actually liked her much. From all the texting between them all, they would all have known perfectly well that she was very likely to text something less than nice about them if they said or did something she didn't like. So they made sure to keep on the right side of her. It's also noticeable that they never went on holiday with her, she only went with her parents or by herself.

I thought that the Ibiza trip was with friends?

She also seemed to do plenty of socialising judging by the social media pics.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yes - she did go away to Ibiza with friends