UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

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I can't help but draw the distinction between how her family (outgroup) were received by management and how the doctors (ingroup) were received. Imagine if a doc threatened to shoot one of the bosses in the head and weirdly would be more justified than John letby in doing as such. Obviously be better if it was LL and in that instance legal but the point stands.

Jmo.

It's interesting how the freemason boss handled that. To me I can understand how he would "call a mate who knows about this type of thing" before potentially risking the hospitals reputation but did he risk anyone's life in doing so? Timeframe is relevant here no point going "I know someone but it will take a year to get to him".
 
Moving on now to a different meeting later that same day, which Nichol attended along with hospital executives and some doctors.

One doctor, Dr Jim McCormack, is recorded as saying: "This is a Beverley Allitt / Shipman situation” - referencing Allitt, a nurse convicted of murdering babies in her care, and Dr Harold Shipman, who was responsible for the deaths of up to 215 patients.

Rachel Langdale KC asks Nichol: “Did that make you sit up when you heard that?”

He says he doesn’t recall the doctor making the comment.


So the number one guy at the hospital, Sir Duncan, did not 'recall' a doctor describing his clinic as being in an "Beverley Allitt / Shipman situation” ? That is odd. I'd think a comment like that would be HUGE red flags of concern.
 
Earlier in today's hearing Nichol was asked about a letter sent to him, and hospital chief executive Tony Chambers, on 7 July 2017 from Lucy Letby's parents.

We have now managed to get the full wording of the letter, which reads as follows:

Dear Mr Chambers & Sir Duncan Nichol

It is now I year since our nightmare began.

There is a saying "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" but it does not seem to apply to Lucy. She is still the only one of all the staff on the Neonatal Unit to be singled out for punishment.

Whilst we appreciate that things cannot be finalised until the Police Investigation has ended we have to have a way of moving forward in terms of her career for however long the investigation takes.

We therefore wish to request an urgent meeting with you both to discuss what restrictions are on Lucy and what expectations she can have regarding Work/Training for the time until the Police Investigation has been completed.

We would appreciate the meeting to be as soon as possible as the anguish this situation is causing has become intolerable.

Kind Regards

John & Sue Letby

Parents of Lucy Letby
================================================

What the heck??????? Basically Lucy's parents are saying

" We know she was just arrested for murdering babies in your hospital, but can we have an emergency meeting with you to figure out HER WORK AND TRAINING so she can MOVE FORWARD in her career ----Kind Regards, Mom and Dad Letby.

They are delusional!!!!!!!!!!
 
Although Nichol was running the NHS at the time of the Allitt scandal, and was responsible for disseminating the recommendations made by the inquiry into the case, he says it "[was] not in the forefront of my memory" when it came to the Letby situation in Chester.


THAT^^^ is so hard for me to believe or to accept, I guess. How could Allitt not come to mind once he learned that there was a death spike and one of the nurses was suspected to have harmed the babies?

He says it was 'not in the forefront of my memory" when it came to Letby situation. How could it not be? He was in charge of NHS when Allitt was murdering babies in a similar fashion. How could he forget?
 
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katydid23 said:
Earlier in today's hearing Nichol was asked about a letter sent to him, and hospital chief executive Tony Chambers, on 7 July 2017 from Lucy Letby's parents.

We have now managed to get the full wording of the letter, which reads as follows:

Dear Mr Chambers & Sir Duncan Nichol

It is now I year since our nightmare began.

There is a saying "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" but it does not seem to apply to Lucy. She is still the only one of all the staff on the Neonatal Unit to be singled out for punishment.

Whilst we appreciate that things cannot be finalised until the Police Investigation has ended we have to have a way of moving forward in terms of her career for however long the investigation takes.

We therefore wish to request an urgent meeting with you both to discuss what restrictions are on Lucy and what expectations she can have regarding Work/Training for the time until the Police Investigation has been completed.

We would appreciate the meeting to be as soon as possible as the anguish this situation is causing has become intolerable.

Kind Regards

John & Sue Letby

Parents of Lucy Letby
================================================

What the heck??????? Basically Lucy's parents are saying

" We know she was just arrested for murdering babies in your hospital, but can we have an emergency meeting with you to figure out HER WORK AND TRAINING so she can MOVE FORWARD in her career ----Kind Regards, Mom and Dad Letby.

They are delusional!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

This letter is dated a year before she was arrested, though.

I agree that they are completely bonkers, however.
 
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katydid23 said:
Moving on now to a different meeting later that same day, which Nichol attended along with hospital executives and some doctors.

One doctor, Dr Jim McCormack, is recorded as saying: "This is a Beverley Allitt / Shipman situation” - referencing Allitt, a nurse convicted of murdering babies in her care, and Dr Harold Shipman, who was responsible for the deaths of up to 215 patients.

Rachel Langdale KC asks Nichol: “Did that make you sit up when you heard that?”

He says he doesn’t recall the doctor making the comment.


So the number one guy at the hospital, Sir Duncan, did not 'recall' a doctor describing his clinic as being in an "Beverley Allitt / Shipman situation” ? That is odd. I'd think a comment like that would be HUGE red flags of concern.
Click to expand...
“This is a Beverly Allitt / Shipman situation”
Seems like a remarkable comment to forget.

Maybe he heard…“This is a cleverly, well-fit, wing-man operation”

Who knows with these people. They hear what they want to hear.
 
The Letby parents letter in full. Yes the “our nightmare” reference is odd, like they couldn’t separate LL from themselves as her parents. More interesting though to me is that LL didn’t even tell them about any of it straight away (didn’t she tell Johnson in court that she did tell them straight away?). This looks like they only found out “by chance” when LL contacted the Royal College of Nursing and raised the grievance. So around September time? So she didn’t tell them for 2 months? ( I wonder if the RCN sent a letter to her old address/parents address or something)

“Statement From John & Susan Letby - Parents of Lucy Letby

At the time when all this started in July on Lucy's return from Annual Leave we were quite concerned and upset that she didn't contact us immediately about what was going on which is totally out of character for her. Only by chance we found out that she had contacted the Royal College of Nursing and we wondered if she had done the right thing.

It transpired that she hadn't told us as she didn't want us to be upset and was trying to deal with the situation herself. However, the involvement of the RCN turned out to be the best thing that could have happened.

A letter was sent to the Trust from Tony Millea - Area Representative for RCN in July asking for clarity about Lucy's situation - a reply was never received which led to Lucy reluctantly putting in a Grievance as it was the only way she was likely to get any answers.

Whilst it slowly came to light that certain Consultants had made comments about her professionally - when we read the Grievance Report to say we were shocked to the core is the understatement of the century. As parents the sickening allegations made against our daughter became a game changer.

Annette Weatherley (Chair of the Grievance Procedure) in her Summary has found the behaviours of four consultants to 'fall far short of what is expected by the Trust and professional standards' and 'is unacceptable and could be viewed as victimisation' .

Our daughter has been to hell and back since July - Can you imagine what it is like to know that colleagues are calling you a murderer. She has frequently said to us during the last 6 months 'I wouldn't hurt anything let alone a tiny baby'. It has broken our hearts especially as we live a hundred miles away and we are so proud of how Lucy has conducted herself and endured this nightmare. I have often said to Lucy how do you keep going and she says quite simply 'Because I haven't done anything wrong'.

Everything has been made worse as she has had to keep the reason for her secondment a secret from colleagues who are also friends and a support network with having no family nearby. She has worked hard at her seconded workplace and done everything asked of her by the Trust. We fear for her health as she has lost weight every time we see her and we can see she is suffering inside. We have yet to see if she will suffer any long term psychological damage.

It would have been easy for her to throw in the towel and return to L.. I&S where she would have been welcomed with open arms. However, despite all the wrong doing against her, her only wish has always been to be reinstated on the Neonatal Unit in the job that she loves. Such is her commitment to
working at the Countess that earlier this year she bought a house close to the hospital. Obviously, had we known of these allegations back in 2015 we would never have committed to this purchase which has left her with a huge financial penalty if she were to sell up.

When any organisation is in trouble it is the person at the top who is taken to task not the person at the bottom - in this case a young relatively inexperienced Band 5 Nurse at the start of her career. It does not make sense that Lucy was put in charge of the sickest babies if there were concerns about her dating back to last year.

We believe that certain Consultants have a personal grudge against Lucy and we are at a loss as to understanding why.

The overlying question that has kept us awake from the day this all started and no-one has come up with an answer is "Why Lucy?"

John & Susan Letby”
 
MrsAddick said:
“This is a Beverly Allitt / Shipman situation”
Seems like a remarkable comment to forget.

Maybe he heard…“This is a cleverly, well-fit, wing-man operation”

Who knows with these people. They hear what they want to hear.
Click to expand...
I don't take with it. Potentially the only individual in this country who has experience of being a hospital manager dealing with a HCK. Any mention of either of those names would jog the memory of an average person here let alone the guy who oversaw the arrest of the most famous killer nurse. Strange. That's without even addressing the situation he was in which one could easily join the dots. He should have read the atmosphere as well as a basic necessity in management. I always look for what people are not saying, it seems the more important thing.
 
ColourPurple said:
The Letby parents letter in full. Yes the “our nightmare” reference is odd, like they couldn’t separate LL from themselves as her parents. More interesting though to me is that LL didn’t even tell them about any of it straight away (didn’t she tell Johnson in court that she did tell them straight away?). This looks like they only found out “by chance” when LL contacted the Royal College of Nursing and raised the grievance. So around September time? So she didn’t tell them for 2 months? ( I wonder if the RCN sent a letter to her old address/parents address or something)

“Statement From John & Susan Letby - Parents of Lucy Letby

At the time when all this started in July on Lucy's return from Annual Leave we were quite concerned and upset that she didn't contact us immediately about what was going on which is totally out of character for her. Only by chance we found out that she had contacted the Royal College of Nursing and we wondered if she had done the right thing.

It transpired that she hadn't told us as she didn't want us to be upset and was trying to deal with the situation herself. However, the involvement of the RCN turned out to be the best thing that could have happened.

A letter was sent to the Trust from Tony Millea - Area Representative for RCN in July asking for clarity about Lucy's situation - a reply was never received which led to Lucy reluctantly putting in a Grievance as it was the only way she was likely to get any answers.

Whilst it slowly came to light that certain Consultants had made comments about her professionally - when we read the Grievance Report to say we were shocked to the core is the understatement of the century. As parents the sickening allegations made against our daughter became a game changer.

Annette Weatherley (Chair of the Grievance Procedure) in her Summary has found the behaviours of four consultants to 'fall far short of what is expected by the Trust and professional standards' and 'is unacceptable and could be viewed as victimisation' .

Our daughter has been to hell and back since July - Can you imagine what it is like to know that colleagues are calling you a murderer. She has frequently said to us during the last 6 months 'I wouldn't hurt anything let alone a tiny baby'. It has broken our hearts especially as we live a hundred miles away and we are so proud of how Lucy has conducted herself and endured this nightmare. I have often said to Lucy how do you keep going and she says quite simply 'Because I haven't done anything wrong'.

Everything has been made worse as she has had to keep the reason for her secondment a secret from colleagues who are also friends and a support network with having no family nearby. She has worked hard at her seconded workplace and done everything asked of her by the Trust. We fear for her health as she has lost weight every time we see her and we can see she is suffering inside. We have yet to see if she will suffer any long term psychological damage.

It would have been easy for her to throw in the towel and return to L.. I&S where she would have been welcomed with open arms. However, despite all the wrong doing against her, her only wish has always been to be reinstated on the Neonatal Unit in the job that she loves. Such is her commitment to
working at the Countess that earlier this year she bought a house close to the hospital. Obviously, had we known of these allegations back in 2015 we would never have committed to this purchase which has left her with a huge financial penalty if she were to sell up.

When any organisation is in trouble it is the person at the top who is taken to task not the person at the bottom - in this case a young relatively inexperienced Band 5 Nurse at the start of her career. It does not make sense that Lucy was put in charge of the sickest babies if there were concerns about her dating back to last year.

We believe that certain Consultants have a personal grudge against Lucy and we are at a loss as to understanding why.

The overlying question that has kept us awake from the day this all started and no-one has come up with an answer is "Why Lucy?"

John & Susan Letby”
Click to expand...
Enmeshment in families is normal, healthy degree of if assumed. That's why her parents are victims as well. Imagine having all reason to love someone you raised from a child being stripped away from you by that very person. That's a huge undertaking to process. Goes from "Lucy letby our beloved child" to "Lucy letby our baby murdering child". The difference in those two images is almost inconceivable and the process going from one particularly positive image to a twisted obscene almost unrecognisable image is difficult to imagine. That's gonna hurt a bit and cause a rupture in the reality they were living. I wouldn't want to go through that. From best to worst.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I genuinely think someone would have to be very very sick or malformed to do as she has. If you were to ask a proper doctor about a "cure" for psychopathy or serial killers they would say "we don't have one". The human mind might be the final frontier folks. I hope that's communicated to John and Susan, that's the only way you can bring this into the understandable realm.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I don't know about anyone else but I genuinely think someone would have to be very very sick or malformed to do as she has. If you were to ask a proper doctor about a "cure" for psychopathy or serial killers they would say "we don't have one". The human mind might be the final frontier folks. I hope that's communicated to John and Susan, that's the only way you can bring this into the understandable realm.
Click to expand...
Thing is that we really don't know what's wrong with her - is she a psychopath or something else?

I'm not convinced that anyone will come up with an actual diagnosis for her, tbh. If they do it won't be any time soon, I don't think.

It may well be that whatever she has is unique to her?
 
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Marantz4250b said:
Thing is that we really don't know what's wrong with her - is she a psychopath or something else?

I'm not convinced that anyone will come up with an actual diagnosis for her, tbh. If they do it won't be any time soon, I don't think.

It may well be that whatever she has is unique to her?
Click to expand...
She could indeed have some form of compulsion and not "psychopathy" but my point is more that she does indeed have something wrong with her for which there is no cure. That might be something of a boon to the family. Her actions I think would be fitting of the label "criminally insane".

I think it would be worth having the top people talk with her and try and figure it out. Dubious about a diagnosis myself tbh but most sure that would take allot of digging.

All I know about the whole thing is that it is really rather strange.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
She could indeed have some form of compulsion and not "psychopathy" but my point is more that she does indeed have something wrong with her for which there is no cure. That might be something of a boon to the family. Her actions I think would be fitting of the label "criminally insane".

I think it would be worth having the top people talk with her and try and figure it out. Dubious about a diagnosis myself tbh but most sure that would take allot of digging.

All I know about the whole thing is that it is really rather strange.
Click to expand...
I have been convinced for some time that there is something in her history that her parents know of (or have suspicions of) but nothing has been said outside the family.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that the people who are most close to her - especially given what is an extremely close relationship with her parents - were 100% surprised that she has done something terrible. Now, I'm sure they were surprised and horrified at the extent of what she's done, but I don't think that they are entirely clueless as to the reasons behind it all.
 
Marantz4250b said:
I have been convinced for some time that there is something in her history that her parents know of (or have suspicions of) but nothing has been said outside the family.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that the people who are most close to her - especially given what is an extremely close relationship with her parents - were 100% surprised that she has done something terrible. Now, I'm sure they were surprised and horrified at the extent of what she's done, but I don't think that they are entirely clueless as to the reasons behind it all.
Click to expand...
Can I ask why?
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Can I ask why?
Click to expand...
LL and her parents have what seems to be an extremely close - "enmeshed" is how you described it - relationship. She seems very emotionally dependent on them and vice-versa.

Her parents are very involved with her life and it seems that they always have been and to a very high degree. They went on holiday together several times a year; LL made comments to colleagues as to how they hated her living so far away; they helped her buy the house; they got involved with her disciplinary. I bet they bought her car as well. They appear to have micro-managed her life from the outset.

If there is anything divergent/abnormal/unusual/strange about her personality or behavior I think it would be inconceivable that they would not have some sort of inkling of it. Perhaps their over the top involvement is because of it?
 
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