UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

[squish]

If guilty, I think June 2015 may have been an escalation, rather than the very beginning. They are still investigating the time period before June 2015. The "first" crime, Baby A, is very bold for an absolute beginner: allegedly attacking the baby at the start of her shift, while in the same room as another nurse who was occupied on the computer with her back turned. Also allegedly attacking the first four babies in a very short period of time. This is not a beginner crime IMO. This is the point when a serial killer gets too comfortable, and starts taking more risks because they are over-confident, and because they need to do more and more to get the same "high".

If guilty, prior to June 2015 she probably attacked babies occasionally, when she felt comfortable enough. It would have taken time to pluck up the guts to do something wrong, then eventually to do something major. It wouldn't surprise me if she started with more minor attacks (rather than fatal), getting thrills with occasional sabotage, testing the waters to see what she could get away with, and to see what the babies could withstand. I think Letby's "fate" comments are significant, and creating risk for the babies with treatment sabotage to test out their luck may have been how she started out. I would be willing to bet, if guilty, there are many more babies who were attacked or sabotaged, but who survived unharmed.

Anyway what I'm getting to is that I doubt there was any particular trigger. IMO this seems to me like the sort of crime that builds up over a period of time, from someone who always had the propensity to do it. If found guilty, I would even think that she became a nurse specifically to have the opportunity to play God, even if at the beginning, it was just the feeling that people's lives were in her hands, whether or not she definitely intended to do anything bad at that point.

 

[Dotta]

If guilty, I think June 2015 may have been an escalation, rather than the very beginning. They are still investigating the time period before June 2015. The "first" crime, Baby A, is very bold for an absolute beginner: allegedly attacking the baby at the start of her shift, while in the same room as another nurse who was occupied on the computer with her back turned. Also allegedly attacking the first four babies in a very short period of time. This is not a beginner crime IMO. This is the point when a serial killer gets too comfortable, and starts taking more risks because they are over-confident, and because they need to do more and more to get the same "high".

If guilty, prior to June 2015 she probably attacked babies occasionally, when she felt comfortable enough. It would have taken time to pluck up the guts to do something wrong, then eventually to do something major. It wouldn't surprise me if she started with more minor attacks (rather than fatal), getting thrills with occasional sabotage, testing the waters to see what she could get away with, and to see what the babies could withstand. I think Letby's "fate" comments are significant, and creating risk for the babies with treatment sabotage to test out their luck may have been how she started out. I would be willing to bet, if guilty, there are many more babies who were attacked or sabotaged, but who survived unharmed.

Anyway what I'm getting to is that I doubt there was any particular trigger. IMO this seems to me like the sort of crime that builds up over a period of time, from someone who always had the propensity to do it. If found guilty, I would even think that she became a nurse specifically to have the opportunity to play God, even if at the beginning, it was just the feeling that people's lives were in her hands, whether or not she definitely intended to do anything bad at that point.

And interesting is the speciality: the most vulnerable patients.

Cannot talk and already endangered as premature babies

JMO

 

[mart321]

If guilty, I think June 2015 may have been an escalation, rather than the very beginning. They are still investigating the time period before June 2015. The "first" crime, Baby A, is very bold for an absolute beginner: allegedly attacking the baby at the start of her shift, while in the same room as another nurse who was occupied on the computer with her back turned. Also allegedly attacking the first four babies in a very short period of time. This is not a beginner crime IMO. This is the point when a serial killer gets too comfortable, and starts taking more risks because they are over-confident, and because they need to do more and more to get the same "high".

If guilty, prior to June 2015 she probably attacked babies occasionally, when she felt comfortable enough. It would have taken time to pluck up the guts to do something wrong, then eventually to do something major. It wouldn't surprise me if she started with more minor attacks (rather than fatal), getting thrills with occasional sabotage, testing the waters to see what she could get away with, and to see what the babies could withstand. I think Letby's "fate" comments are significant, and creating risk for the babies with treatment sabotage to test out their luck may have been how she started out. I would be willing to bet, if guilty, there are many more babies who were attacked or sabotaged, but who survived unharmed.

Anyway what I'm getting to is that I doubt there was any particular trigger. IMO this seems to me like the sort of crime that builds up over a period of time, from someone who always had the propensity to do it. If found guilty, I would even think that she became a nurse specifically to have the opportunity to play God, even if at the beginning, it was just the feeling that people's lives were in her hands, whether or not she definitely intended to do anything bad at that point.

If G then, then this is exactly what I have thought. I don't imagine 2015 was the beginning, more of an unraveling, if anything. The level of deviousness and cunning needed to do this beggars belief. Imo she will definitely have done some testing of the waters prior to this, if it turns out she is G

Are there any articles with information about the extension of this investigation. I did read here, that operation hummingbird had been extended until I think 2024? And would now include a Liverpool hospital, but I can find no source for this

 

[katydid23]

So what other than her being around made him or others think it was her? Assuming she is innocent. They were examples of discrimination IMO Obviously.

Not only was she around, but she was often 'around' even when she was not the designated nurse. And she was very often THE LAST ONE that had engaged with the victim before the collapse.

So I don't think her personality or hair colour would have anything to do with it.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Something I still get uneasy vibes about and don’t ask me why is the family dynamic.
She seems very very reliant on her parents and comments yesterday claim they “ hated “ her living 100 miles away and that moving to NZ would be out of the question as she couldn’t leave them to live her own life and follow her dream. As a parent I find that sad tbh. Her father seems quite old compared with her mother ( could be stress ) and I’m wondering if it was a second marriage possibly ?
Another niggle I thought was perhaps she had been a twin ? She seems to target twins and multiple births for some reason, could that of been a trigger?
The family dynamic pre arrest seemed incredibly insular.
Hell would of frozen over before I went to Ibiza with my parents at her age !
My humble option / ramblings obviously.

 

[Tortoise]

So what other than her being around made him or others think it was her? Assuming she is innocent. They were examples of discrimination IMO Obviously.

You've presented a false dichotomy.


He's already testified he noticed her presence.

"Dr Jayaram decided to check on Child K after he noticed a “coincidence between the unexplained deaths, serious collapses and the presence of Lucy Letby”."

My concerns about Lucy Letby were shut down, says TV doctor


"Consultants noted there was "one common denominator" - the presence of neonatal nurse Lucy Letby.

Many of the events occurred "during the night shifts".

When Letby was moved to the day shifts, the rate of collapses "shifted to the day shift pattern".

Police were then called in, and commissioned a "painstaking review" by "experienced doctors with no connection to the Countess of Chester Hospital".

The review concluded that two children were "poisoned" with insulin.

The prosecution say the "only reasonable conclusion" is the babies were poisoned "deliberately - these were no accidents".

Mr Johnson: For other babies, some were "harmed and killed" by the 'injection of air' into the bloodstream or via a tube into the stomach."

"Sometimes they were injected with 'too much' milk or some other fluid, or air, that can have catastrophic effects on the baby... sometimes insulin."

"But the constant presence at all these events was Lucy Letby."

A chart is displayed to the jury about the presence of staff on duty at the time the babies were "attacked", with Letby present for all 24 incidents listed between 2015 and 2016.

The majority of incidents are at night-time. No other member of registered nurse and/or nursery nurse staff is present for more than a total of seven incidents.

"It is a process of elimination," Mr Johnson tells the court.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[MachinaCollecta]

So what other than her being around made him or others think it was her? Assuming she is innocent. They were examples of discrimination IMO Obviously.

Maybe the fact that babies were getting ill and/or dying? Where’s the discrimination here?

 

[Tortoise]

Diabolical reporting today!! All the papers have the exact same report as far as I can see. Did the mother put in her witness statement that the nurse said this to her? If so, it wasn't reported yesterday in any of the many reports about the mother's statement. I can't work out if this is the defence cross-examination of the nurse - perhaps accusing her of what - knowing that baby I was attacked? Surely it wouldn't be that hard to include a reason for the questioning of the nurse and which side was alleging what exactly.



"Her then colleague was asked if she could recall a later conversation with Child I’s mother, who had returned to the unit to drop off cash she had raised.

She had looked after Child I the night before she died on October 23 2015, and had dressed the baby, who had become “very unsettled”, Manchester Crown Court heard.

The nurse, who cannot be named for legal reasons, said: “Mum came in and asked why I had dressed her and I explained I wanted to see if it settled her.

“I don’t remember saying to her that (Child I) didn’t die of prematurity. I only remember the babygro part of the conversation.”

Nurse could not remember saying baby didn’t die of prematurity, Letby trial told | ITV News
Lucy Letby trial: Court hears nurse was keen to work extra shifts

 

[Dotta]

Diabolical reporting today!!

Diabolical seems this case to me!

I still remember Prosecution words about "malevolent presence" (some even ridiculed the phrase).

But the Prosecution was spot on

Allegedly, of course.

JmO

 

[Legal]

Something I still get uneasy vibes about and don’t ask me why is the family dynamic.
She seems very very reliant on her parents and comments yesterday claim they “ hated “ her living 100 miles away and that moving to NZ would be out of the question as she couldn’t leave them to live her own life and follow her dream. As a parent I find that sad tbh. Her father seems quite old compared with her mother ( could be stress ) and I’m wondering if it was a second marriage possibly ?
Another niggle I thought was perhaps she had been a twin ? She seems to target twins and multiple births for some reason, could that of been a trigger?
The family dynamic pre arrest seemed incredibly insular.
Hell would of frozen over before I went to Ibiza with my parents at her age !
My humble option / ramblings obviously.

I didn't know the Ibiza trip was with her parents! Ibiza is a place you go in your 20s with your friends to party!

I do think if she is guilty, boredom with the job/ life and frustration with feeling unable to escape overseas (as stated by her in text messages) could have led to her feeling trapped and caused her to lash out and create drama.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m not sure the amount of AM charges on one baby would give an indication that there is an increasing desire for the result as a learned and conditioned behaviour with associated recklessness. I would have thought if she was that way inclined she would have made sure any attempt was successful. It could suggest some babies being targeted though. So many attempts over time if guilty.

Not only was she around, but she was often 'around' even when she was not the designated nurse. And she was very often THE LAST ONE that had engaged with the victim before the collapse.

So I don't think her personality or hair colour would have anything to do with it.

I’m not sure not being the designated nurse and treating others assignments is at all unusual. I’m not quite sure how to look at the notes to be honest. I understand the paper trail led many to think she was the cause but i don’t see how her actually filling in the notes as per protocol is in line with someone covering their tracks or hiding something especially if she is not the DN.

there will most definitely be a root as to why people started to think her presence and babies deteriorating was suspicious. jmo.

 

[ShireChe]

I didn't know the Ibiza trip was with her parents! Ibiza is a place you go in your 20s with your friends to party!

I do think if she is guilty, boredom with the job/ life and frustration with feeling unable to escape overseas (as stated by her in text messages) could have led to her feeling trapped and caused her to lash out and create drama.

The Ibiza trip didn't seem to fit in with other descriptions we have about her character. It actually makes much more sense to me if she went with her parents. Outside of the pub/club area then Ibiza is a destination for a tranquil, relaxing peaceful break.

I am of course making assumptions here that her parents aren't into the Ibiza pub/club scene.

ETA: of course none of this has any indication on her being capable/not capable of the accused acts

 

[bbsaz]

I’m not sure the amount of AM charges on one baby would give an indication that there is an increasing desire for the result as a learned and conditioned behaviour with associated recklessness. I would have thought if she was that way inclined she would have made sure any attempt was successful. It could suggest some babies being targeted though. So many attempts over time if guilty.

I’m not sure not being the designated nurse and treating others assignments is at all unusual. I’m not quite sure how to look at the notes to be honest. I understand the paper trail led many to think she was the cause but i don’t see how her actually filling in the notes as per protocol is in line with someone covering their tracks or hiding something especially if she is not the DN.

there will most definitely be a root as to why people started to think her presence and babies deteriorating was suspicious. jmo.

To me, the number of AM charges reflects the fact that Baby I was a strong baby. She was almost ready to go home, looking around, same size as a full termer. Did that make her less vulnerable, and therefore more resiliant to the attempts?? (Moo)

 

[Sweeper2000]

The Ibiza trip didn't seem to fit in with other descriptions we have about her character. It actually makes much more sense to me if she went with her parents. Outside of the pub/club area then Ibiza is a destination for a tranquil, relaxing peaceful break.

I am of course making assumptions here that her parents aren't into the Ibiza pub/club scene.

Affordable package holidays. Hotels or villas, nice climate, good excursions, very very tourist orientated along with the things that come with an economy built off of that. Maybe an opportunity for her ad family to spend some quality time together without too much friction.

or maybe mum and dad were “Avin it large”.

 

[Sweeper2000]

To me, the number of AM charges reflects the fact that Baby I was a strong baby. She was almost ready to go home, looking around, same size as a full termer. Did that make her less vulnerable, and therefore more resiliant to the attempts?? (Moo)

Good question but I really couldn’t say in terms of her health. Numerous collapses etc. If anything I think it doesn’t correlate with recklessness if guilty but maybe more deliberate targeting. I have absolutely no idea how normal it is for babies to be like that at all.

 

[ColourPurple]

I didn't know the Ibiza trip was with her parents! Ibiza is a place you go in your 20s with your friends to party!

I do think if she is guilty, boredom with the job/ life and frustration with feeling unable to escape overseas (as stated by her in text messages) could have led to her feeling trapped and caused her to lash out and create drama.

I think it was another trip that was with her parents, somewhere in Devon rings bells.

ETA Yeah Torquay in Devon. This article includes quotes from both Lucy's neighbours and her parent's neighbours:

A neighbour to the address being searched said: "She's a bit of an enigma, no-one seems to know her.

"I saw lots of police cars arrive, a few cars then a big police van, and gradually more and more came and they put up the tent."...

"Another neighbour said: “I have seen her going in and out of the house with a man who I presumed was her partner but don’t know anything about her. I don’t know if she is a nurse or not.

“The police came first thing this morning and the vans have been there all day so it’s obviously an important investigation.”

In Hereford a neighbour of the family said: “Lucy is so dedicated to her job.

“Lucy just spent a week in Torquay on holiday with her parents.

“She’s is an only child and I believe she got her job as a nurse from her studies at Chester University.

Police search home of nurse, 28, after arresting woman over murder of 8 babies

The house being searched today - just a mile from the hospital in Chester - belongs to nurse Lucy Letby, 28, who is believed to live in the property with her two cats

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Ruby12345]

The Ibiza trip mentioned was with her friends. I do wonder what they think of this. Do they think she's wrongly accused of a crime she didn't commit?

 

[Tortoise]

So to summarise, prosecution has outlined the electronic evidence for baby I for the first allegation of attempted murder on Sep 30th 2015. Prosecution is dealing with one allegation at a time, there are four allegations of attempted murder but only one charge - murder - in October.


30th Sep 2015 was a Wednesday and LL worked a day shift. LL had been off work since Sunday 27th Sep, when baby H collapsed and required CPR during LL's night shift. That Sunday when LL came off shift, she was texting with Dr Alison Ventress telling her that baby H had been transferred to Arrowe Park. The text messages show that Dr Ventress didn't understand why baby H was collapsing.

Dr.AV: “Oh crap. Do they know why she did it this time?"

LL also texted a colleague that day about it always happening at night when there were less people around, and talks about thinking about the women's (hospital) if only it were closer.


Baby I was 8 weeks old and she had no breathing problems, was in air and gaining weight and being fed 35mls of expressed breast milk and fortifier every three hours, by bottle when she was awake and by NGtube when asleep. She was in room 3, which is a special care room like room 4.

Jennifer Jones Key was the designated nurse overnight 29th/30th and she recorded that the father had been present for cares.

LL was baby I's designated nurse that day shift, and was looking after two other babies also in room 3.


The mother says she would visit from 9am each day and do the bottle feeds but not the tube feeds.

At 10am, baby I was fed a 35ml bottle.

There is mention of a note by LL (not sure where or what time) that Child I was 'handling well and waking for feeds'.

At 1pm, LL recorded: 'EBM [expressed breast milk]+fortifier, NGT, vomit aspirated 5ml, ph5'. It is signed by LL. A feeding chart showed 35mls was given to Child I when asleep.

Time unclear - The mother testified she was changing baby's nappy when LL walked in and said 'I've noticed her belly is extended today, I'll go and check with the doctor'.

At 1.36pm - LL's nursing note says: "'Abdomen appears full and slightly distended. Soft to touch, [Child I] straining++. Bowels have been opened. Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that [Child I] is quiet. Appears generally pale. Not on monitor. [will continue to monitor situation]". Defence says the nursing note can cover the whole morning from 8am to 1.36pm, not the time the note was written.

At 1.48pm - LL made another note : 'Mummy visiting, carrying out feeds and cares'. The defence says this can refer to the period 8am-1.48pm, not the time the note was written at 1.48pm.

The mother says she was there when a medical staff member checked the belly and noted it was soft and would be examined.

3pm - LL's nursing note: 'Reviewed by Drs as [Child I] appeared mottled in colour with distended abdomen and more prominent veins. Advised to continue. Temperature within normal range with hot cot at 38 degrees. Full monitoring recommenced. within normal range.' The prosecution says more regular observations were commenced.

4pm - LL noted: '35 ml feed, aspirate of 3ml, with Child I 'asleep'. It is initialled by LL. LL noted: 'did not wake for feed at 1600 therefore NG Tube feed given'.

4.30pm - An unsigned feed chart records: large vomit and apnoea (breathing stopped) - nil by mouth. LL made a nursing note: 'At 1630 had a large vomit from mouth and nose++ suction given. Became apnoeic with bradycardia and desaturation (30s). Help summoned and IPPV given for approx 3min in 100% oxygen to recover. Drs were crash called. 'Transferred to nursery 1.' For the family communications LL noted: 'Mummy present when reviewed by Drs. Had left unit when had large vomit and transferred to nursery 1. [Mother] up to date with current plan...' – 1st alleged attempted murder of I

4.30pm - A doctor recorded that he was crash called. His clinical note: 'Chest clear... Abdomen distended. active bowel sounds all zones'. (electronic evidence) A doctor recorded Child I had suffered a 'respiratory arrest' at 4.30pm, struggling to breathe, she was pale and distressed, and the abdomen was 'distended and hard'.

5.39pm - An x-ray recorded splinting of diaphragm due to moderately severe bowel distension. Suspicious of NEC.

5.45 -6pm - LL administered infusions of glucose and saline.

7.30pm - Baby I stopped breathing again. LL's notes: 'At 1930 [Child I] became apnoeic - abdomen distended++ and firm. Bradycardia and desaturation followed, SHO in attendance and registrar called...'Nil by mouth. NG tube on free drainage. Cannula inserted but tissued during saline bolus (5mls given). 'Colour appears pale but improved from earlier in shift. Abdomen appears full and distended. Veins more prominent. Not further vomits. Responsive but quiet on handling. '

between 7.30 to 8pm was handover to the night shift. The nightshift designated nurse BB also noted the 7.30pm collapse and swollen hard abdomen, and she asked LL to aspirate the NGT. LL aspirated air +++ and 2mls milk, after which baby I improved. Doctors prescribed antibiotics and ordered blood tests and x-rays.

When she came off shift that evening LL texted Jennifer Jones-Key

"I am a bit up and down. Have not had nice shifts and not been feeling supported by some people."

She also messaged Dr Ventress? about running away to NZ. LL and Dr Ventress then exchange messages about LL not leaving her parents and families being tough with two sad-face emojis.

She also messaged Jennifer Jones-Key again to say she wasn't supposed to be working that day because of her extra night shift the week before, but she had been put back on.

The night shift nurse BB recorded at the end of her shift that Baby I was handling much better without desats//bradys, her colour had improved and her abdomen was distended but less so than beginning of shift. The parents expressed concerns to the doctor about possible lactose intolerance. A cautious feeding programme was restarted that evening (1st Oct).

 

[MsBetsy]

Good question but I really couldn’t say in terms of her health. Numerous collapses etc. If anything I think it doesn’t correlate with recklessness if guilty but maybe more deliberate targeting. I have absolutely no idea how normal it is for babies to be like that at all.

It wasn't just that there were numerous collapses. There were numerous near-fatal collapses during which the babies were unusually difficult to resuscitate. When the babies were removed from Letby's orbit, they made speedy recoveries, according to the prosecution.

I think that is what makes the collapses significant.

 

[ColourPurple]

...

The night shift nurse BB recorded at the end of her shift that Baby I was handling much better without desats//bradys, her colour had improved and her abdomen was distended but less so than beginning of shift. The parents expressed concerns to the doctor about possible lactose intolerance. A cautious feeding programme was restarted that evening (1st Oct).

Snipped by me
Interesting, so in the cases where LL is accused of attempted murder during her night shift, the babies tend to deteriorate during her night shift and then improve during the following day shift. And in this case, where LL is accused of attempted murder during her day shift, the baby deterioarates during her day shift and then improves during the following night shift.

Also, I wonder who and what she was referring to here: "I am a bit up and down. Have not had nice shifts and not been feeling supported by some people."