UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[marynnu]

Any estimates on the ml of air necessary to over inflate a stomach like that Mary pls? In this context would you think it more reasonable for an alleged murderer to use a big syringe or to pump a smaller one many times? Difficult question to me, I would assume anyone doing it would spend the least amount of time on it as possible which pushes me towards the larger syringe. also wondering when larger syringes are used? I’m also wondering exactly how one would determine that any air aspirated from a stomach should or shouldn’t be there? Empty spaces are normally full of gas so how is it that this air is thought to be present through deliberate actions.

I have no idea re. volumes of air. You can push the contents of a smaller syringe through a cannulla more quickly than with a large syringe, so I imagine the same applies to an NGT.
50/60ml syringes are only used for continuous infusions via a pump to give fluids or medication - insulin, morphine, certain antibiotics, saline + heparin into an artery etc.

 

[ColourPurple]

Baby q she weren't in the room?

She was there just before.

 

[katydid23]

Yeh it’s only relevant to arterial AE but the ng tube is different. Has to be enough to splint the diaphragm which I would assume is a significant amount.

I never said it was difficult to do as alleged but I do think it’s difficult to do without being seen. I also think it’s very blatantly an abnormal thing for a nurse to repetitively pump a syringe. Easy enough to blend in ie priming a line but using a big syringe? Pumping a small syringe multiple of times?

I don't think it would be that hard to do these things without being seen. Nurses spend long periods of time with their babies without others being around. If someone was coming down the hall, footsteps would probably be heard. It just takes a split second to suddenly look 'innocently' doing something else. Like writing notes or tucking in a baby.

No one would be looking at her while she was repetitively pumping a syringe. Except the tiny victim.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks katydid. I think nurse Alice should be nurse Ellis. Sophie Ellis.

THank You----I was using CC which is notoriously wrong with names

 

[ColourPurple]

But wouldn't his wife expect him to arrive home the next morning with his car?

Yes, he'd said to LL he would pick it up in the morning (when he'd finished his shift). Bear in mind he said he'd worked all over the region, so any hypothetical partner could live miles away from the hospital. As it was, LL walked home so it never happened anyway.

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't think it would be that hard to do these things without being seen. Nurses spend long periods of time with their babies without others being around. If someone was coming down the hall, footsteps would probably be heard. It just takes a split second to suddenly look 'innocently' doing something else. Like writing notes or tucking in a baby.

No one would be looking at her while she was repetitively pumping a syringe. Except the tiny victim.

Exactly! It would be different if a complete stranger was trying to do something to a baby's NG tube, but a nurse who is supposed to be there wouldn't arouse suspicion at all.

 

[JosieJo]

A well known colleague would be able to do pretty much any procedure involving a syringe and an ngt or line without anyone batting an eyelid imo

 

[marynnu]

My daft question of the day! I can't quite make sense of Dr.A's initial reply to LL's question, as how would he know this? Unless he was in the room. But then why say 'what exactly did he ask?'.

"Letby messages a doctor at 10.48pm: 'Do I need to be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking?'

Response: 'No.

'He was asking to make sure that normal procedures were being carried out'

'What exactly did he ask?'

 

[marynnu]

Exactly! It would be different if a complete stranger was trying to do something to a baby's NG tube, but a nurse who is supposed to be there wouldn't arouse suspicion at all.

A well known colleague would be able to do pretty much any procedure involving a syringe and an ngt or line without anyone batting an eyelid imo

100%. You'd definitely question a doctor, but not a nurse!

 

[ColourPurple]

My daft question of the day! I can't quite make sense of Dr.A's initial reply to LL's question, as how would he know this? Unless he was in the room. But then why say 'what exactly did he ask?'.

"Letby messages a doctor at 10.48pm: 'Do I need to be worried about what Dr Gibbs was asking?'

Response: 'No.

'He was asking to make sure that normal procedures were being carried out'

'What exactly did he ask?'

I just assumed she'd mentioned it to him previously for him to already have a vague idea of what she was referring to. We only get a selection of the texts and maybe she'd said something in person.

 

[Tortoise]

It seems to be like he changed his mind at some point after LL was moved to admin and all the deaths stopped.
Which would suggest 'renewed thinking' to me rather than confirmation bias. JMO

On the Sunday, the day after baby Q collapsed and destabilised under LL's care, doc choc texted LL to say Q had NEC and was being transferred to Alder Hey. Opening speech says this was for bowel surgery, based on an x-ray showing gas on one side of the bowel.

Baby Q went to Alder Hey that Sunday night, and 14 hours later on Monday morning they told the Countess that they were sending him back, because he had quickly improved and didn't need surgery.

On the Monday, doc choc texted LL saying there were a few managers/directors on the unit and that it was odd that Alder Hey were sending baby Q back, but he didn't tell her it was because he didn't need surgery he said it was lack of beds, which was a half-truth IMO, because yes, they wouldn't give a bed to a baby that didn't need it IMO. He also said it was disruptive for the parents, which I'm sure it was, but I'm also sure they would have been very relieved he didn't need surgery. I'm not sure if he didn't have the full picture yet, as regards Q not having NEC, but his comment that it was "odd" looks to me to be the first sign of his cogs turning.

Baby I also had a suspected bowel disorder and when she died, just before it was due to be investigated, the post-mortem revealed no issues with her bowel.

All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Yeh it’s only relevant to arterial AE but the ng tube is different. Has to be enough to splint the diaphragm which I would assume is a significant amount.

I never said it was difficult to do as alleged but I do think it’s difficult to do without being seen. I also think it’s very blatantly an abnormal thing for a nurse to repetitively pump a syringe. Easy enough to blend in ie priming a line but using a big syringe? Pumping a small syringe multiple of times?

There was only one other nurse in the room, Mary, and she was tending to her designated baby.

 

[Marie Bell]

Tbh it seems a bit over the top to me too. I can not see the NHS telling staff they must come to A&E with that, not with 4 hour waits and ambulances stacked up in the car park.
I think it's very telling that with so much going on at the unit, that they thought it best to send LL to A&E for a scratch on her pinky or whatever..
What can they do for her that she's not able to do for herself?

Wasn't this in 2016 though? I'm not sure that the A&E situation was as desperate then as it is now.

 

[Tortoise]

Any estimates on the ml of air necessary to over inflate a stomach like that Mary pls? In this context would you think it more reasonable for an alleged murderer to use a big syringe or to pump a smaller one many times? Difficult question to me, I would assume anyone doing it would spend the least amount of time on it as possible which pushes me towards the larger syringe. also wondering when larger syringes are used? I’m also wondering exactly how one would determine that any air aspirated from a stomach should or shouldn’t be there? Empty spaces are normally full of gas so how is it that this air is thought to be present through deliberate actions.

Empty spaces are normally full of gas??

We're talking about his stomach, not a room.

We have heard that the procedure followed before feeding a baby is to aspirate the stomach contents.

LL told police, as she did with baby G, that babies can gulp air when they vomit.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

LL to doc: Thanks, really appreciate you saying that. So relieved that it's you who has been there throughout.

Throughout - over 11 days, seven of which she was on leave - babies N, O, P and Q, and another unidentified baby he refers to.

A nurse, presumably LL, his designated nurse, asked the attending doctor to call doc choc during baby P's resus.

 

[marynnu]

A nurse, presumably LL, his designated nurse, asked the attending doctor to call doc choc during baby P's resus.

Tortoise, sorry to be a pain as I think I've asked before, but I've never been able to track down this bit of reporting and it's really annoying me! Is there any way you could point me in the right direction please? Thank you.

 

[marynnu]

A nurse, presumably LL, his designated nurse, asked the attending doctor to call doc choc during baby P's resus.

Tortoise, sorry to be a pain as I think I've asked before, but I've never been able to track down this bit of reporting and it's really annoying me! Is there any way you could point me in the right direction please? Thank you.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise, sorry to be a pain as I think I've asked before, but I've never been able to track down this bit of reporting and it's really annoying me! Is there any way you could point me in the right direction please? Thank you.

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 25: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor...

www.mailplus.co.uk

listen from 7.44mins in this podcast

 

[Dotta]

On the Monday, doc choc texted LL saying there were a few managers/directors on the unit

A-HA!

No need to be a fly on the wall to guess what these "managers/directors" were discussing.

Im humming a Swan Song now

JMO

 

[Dotta]

By the way, Im sooo curious about these clerical duties!

More texting and twiddling fingers is my guess.

But who could she be sending texts to then?
And what about?

JMO