UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[Sweeper2000]

"who told you?" seems a bit paranoid to me. Why should it matter to LL how her colleague who is at work heard about baby E having died? It's as if LL thinks it is about her and not the baby.

She did the same with baby G

LL: "Had rubbish nights. x"
JJ-K: "Yeah gathered. x"
LL: "Thought someone would have told you x.
The conversation turned to LL asking which of the team had informed JJ-K about the events of the night-shift.

'Thought someone would have told you' seems like fishing and when JJ-K doesn't give up the goods LL asks directly, so it seems she wanted to ask straight off but tried to disguise her interest at first.

I wouldn't call it veiled language, but not wanting her need to know to be obvious. IMO

I certainly think there is room for a negative or positive attribute to her motive for asking the question. Why is one ok or not and why ask anyway? Especially when that sequence of conversation implies a want to know. Is that the entire conversation? Would be interesting to hear if she ever expressed frustration or anger at being talked about. If she doesn’t it would be difficult for me to distinguish between performance related worries and direct concerns about perceived actions.

 

[May72031]

Re: "It was happening right under his nose"

Well, we don't actually know that he was aware of the far more serious concerns being raised by other doctors/consultants to management - the same management that reportedly spent the next 11 months trying to reinstate her! [bolding mine] It could be that at that moment, Dr. Choc was defending a colleague/possible love interest from what he believed was spurious gossip about being possible negligence. LL was seen (AFAIAA) by much of the few fellow staff and management as hard working and very capable. So why wouldn't he?

So, given that the management knew about the more serious concerns put forward by several doctors and consultants, and reacted in the way they did they didn't - why cast aspersions on Dr. Choc, who for all we know, didn't know about the aforementioned?

IMO.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

If guilty, she would have actively working to deceive everyone around her. I'm hesitant to blame people for being deceived (at any point), rather than keeping the focus where it should be, the alleged criminal.

 

[JosieJo]

Something that struck me was their conversations were on Facebook messenger..considering how much they messaged I'm suprised they didn't seem to have each others phone numbers ?

 

[notsure]

I was just getting ready to post the same.

Sounds to me that he could be quite a bit older too, having worked at almost every hospital in the region.

Maybe he had a kind of fatherly feeling towards her.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Re: "It was happening right under his nose"

Well, we don't actually know that he was aware of the far more serious concerns being raised by other doctors/consultants to management - the same management that reportedly spent the next 11 months trying to reinstate her! [bolding mine] It could be that at that moment, Dr. Choc was defending a colleague/possible love interest from what he believed was spurious gossip about being possible negligence. LL was seen (AFAIAA) by much of the few fellow staff and management as hard working and very capable. So why wouldn't he?

So, given that the management knew about the more serious concerns put forward by several doctors and consultants, and reacted in the way they did they didn't - why cast aspersions on Dr. Choc, who for all we know, didn't know about the aforementioned?

IMO.

To add to this, we heard early on in the trial from another consultant who was also junior at the time, who said he didn’t realise how out of the ordinary the collapses were until he experienced working in a different hospital, then he suddenly realised how abnormal it had been at COCH.

Dr Choc could be suffering the same delusion, saying “it’s not you, it’s the babies” because he knew no better at that moment.

JMO. I do believe his judgement was probably clouded by his feelings for LL to an extent, but I don’t think he was a complete fool.

Edit: just read that he’d worked “everywhere in the region”, so most of what I’ve written here is probably nonsense!

2nd Edit: Aaaannd I also missed he has actual older children. I am more confused as ever about this doctor. No wonder he’s staying anonymous..

 

[squish]

Maybe he had a kind of fatherly feeling towards her.

lol no, he definitely fancied her. Men don't get that eager just by feeling fatherly to some random young nurse.

 

[Dotta]

lol no, he definitely fancied her. Men don't get that eager just by feeling fatherly to some random young nurse.

I have never talked to my father via FB messenger through the night haha

 

[Imogenia]

Maybe he had a kind of fatherly feeling towards her.

I think that you could be right.

 

[Sundial]

Just throwing some thoughts out;
Older dr choc (it seems as he states he has older children), the offer to loan his car and collect in the morning etc; did he live not too far from her perhaps?
There’s also the possibility he may have been separated/divorced. Even parents around 30-40 years old could still have teenage children who wouldn’t necessarily need looking after in the same way a child under 12 would (depending on the child’s needs of course).

But it does seem as though he’s taken her under his wing so to speak; but messaging until the early hours is odd. Maybe. You could almost build a bit of a picture though, whether he liked her as a friend or more, you can sort of see why she specifically asked after him during the triplets case.

Just quite unusual; all my own opinions.

 

[katydid23]

I agree with you. It would be a strange thing to say otherwise, IMO.

I cannot imagine that the other doctors, who were very suspicious by then---suspicious enough to go to management to get her off the unit---wouldn't have shared soime of their suspicions with all the other doctors. Even the junior ones because they are the ones spending a lot of time on the unit with the nurses, talking over treatments, etc.

Those senior suspicious doctors surely out of desperation would have given a heads up to the junior doctors, to at least keep their eyes open around nurse Letby.

 

[katydid23]

It’s also very much in line with the obliviousness to potential trouble ahead we have seen from her, much like someone who doesn’t have a reason to have her back up.

Jmo. I never did get the impression that those kinds of questions were scanning. They all seemed within normal parameters to me. ill give an example of how I reached that conclusion. “News travels fast, who told you”? If one were to look at the underlying emotions in that sentence you could assume a perceived negative Ie gossiping but it isn’t one preceded by or followed by anxiety. If anxiety was at the root of that sentence the immediate question would have been “who told you”? then “news travels fast”.

Unless this was a cunning or manipulative person, who knew how to couch their wording to make it appear innocent like that, to you and others.

I know it’s not a strong example and is just my opinion but that’s the kind of thing I have been looking for along with something that is directly and self evidently anxious.

I think the amount of texting she did while on duty shows how anxious she was. She seemed very intent upon finding out what was going on and what people thought and were saying. She did not appear oblivious to me.

With the example given the only problem clearly perceived is people gossiping not that something has happened that she doesn’t want people talking about Or that it could potentially reflect badly on her. Again she seems oblivious to the potential that people could be looking at her with a big big raised eyebrow. Like she hasn’t done anything.

There were even texts where she spoke about others having poor opinions about her at work. She was not oblivious to others having big raised eyebrows about her.

however the fb searches have come as close to questionable as anything else presented, big question mark for me there.
jmo.

as something else there isn’t a way of perceiving those scanning texts as defensive in nature for example, “who told you?, people should not be gossiping“

How would she be complaining about gossiping? That would be very hypocritical of her, imo.

 

[katydid23]

I totally get that line of thought. I suppose I’m not actually ruling it out only stating that that passage of writing doesn’t give it away. In essence no reason to think it’s anything but a normal response that anyone would give in that situation.

i Would give that proposition much more due seriousness if there was anything that could be tied into that being a likely suggestion. As an example any other instances of her using veiled language, ever. The same investigatory method I’m applying to her imo personal usage of the words “not good enough” and clinical usage of her personal phrase “rubbish”.

Can I ask what it is that makes you think that that is a veiled question with only one aim?

I think her, allegedly, false medical notes are good examples of veiled language.

 

[katydid23]

The doctor replies at 00:12, saying: 'It's true. You are one of the few nurses across the region (I've worked pretty much everywhere) that I would trust with my own children. If you're worried – I'm worried. You should do the APNP (Advanced Paediatric Nurse Practitioner) course, you'd be excellent'.

In a second reference to his children, he adds: 'They're possibly a bit too big now'.

Letby responds: 'Don't know what to say. Thank you'.

The doctor: 'Self-doubt finished?'

Letby: 'I think so, thank you ++


Oh they weren't hypothetical children after all!

Doctor told Lucy Letby she would trust her 'with my own children'

The doctor had become a friend to Lucy Letby (pictured) by the time the two shared a series of late-night messages in June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

He is probably divorced. I doubt he would offer his car up to a young single nurse, if his wife was at home with him.

 

[katydid23]

To add to this, we heard early on in the trial from another consultant who was also junior at the time, who said he didn’t realise how out of the ordinary the collapses were until he experienced working in a different hospital, then he suddenly realised how abnormal it had been at COCH.

Dr Choc could be suffering the same delusion, saying “it’s not you, it’s the babies” because he knew no better at that moment.

JMO. I do believe his judgement was probably clouded by his feelings for LL to an extent, but I don’t think he was a complete fool.

Edit: just read that he’d worked “everywhere in the region”, so most of what I’ve written here is probably nonsense!

2nd Edit: Aaaannd I also missed he has actual older children. I am more confused as ever about this doctor. No wonder he’s staying anonymous..

I have the same confusion about now.

I had thought he was a junior doctor. But if he is older and has worked in many hospitals---then what does it mean?

Maybe he worked as a nurse and went to med school later, after a divorce? My friend did that. He was a nurse for 15 years then finally did med school.

 

[Marantz4250b]

And not just anyone who had a close relationship with her. You only need look at the appalling damage an out of control social media can inflict upon anyone whose name/face happens to flow into the latest news cycle. This is wholly warranted self-protection.

I'm surprised more of the witnesses here haven't chosen the same degree of anonymity as Dr Choc.

I can understand the request for a screen but not for the reasons you give; none of these people are actually anonymous as they all state their names so the press know who they are. Photos can't be taken in court so they can't end up on social media or in the papers.

 

[Marantz4250b]

So, do we think Dr.A has named someone? Or are the asterisks just for emphasis?

"If *anybody* says something to you about being not good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement."

If you put them in s WhatsApp message it puts the word in bold.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Thanks.
And what are solicitors' tasks?

A Barrister has to be instructed by a solicitor, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The doctor replies at 00:12, saying: 'It's true. You are one of the few nurses across the region (I've worked pretty much everywhere) that I would trust with my own children. If you're worried – I'm worried. You should do the APNP (Advanced Paediatric Nurse Practitioner) course, you'd be excellent'.

In a second reference to his children, he adds: 'They're possibly a bit too big now'.

Letby responds: 'Don't know what to say. Thank you'.

The doctor: 'Self-doubt finished?'

Letby: 'I think so, thank you ++


Oh they weren't hypothetical children after all!

Doctor told Lucy Letby she would trust her 'with my own children'

The doctor had become a friend to Lucy Letby (pictured) by the time the two shared a series of late-night messages in June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I hadn't picked up on that. So, he's potentially quite a bit older than her? I belive I said weeks ago that I'd not at all be surprised if she was seeing an older guy. Seems like that may have been the case.

 

[katydid23]

If you put them in s WhatsApp message it puts the word in bold.

That's ^^ interesting. I don't think he'd need to put the word in bold if 'anyone' was referring to her fellow nurses. To me it seems to be implying that he would even stand up to superiors, if need be.

"If *anybody* says something to you about being not good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement."