UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

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IMO

her taking the stand and cross examination by Prosecution is VITAL to this trial.

Especially as she cannot confer with Defence.
She is on her own and at last we can hear HER in her own words.

So many details came to light:

- Babies' deterioration just after parents left their side,
- falsifying the nursing notes,
- claiming Babies' deterioration when it wasn't true,
- claiming a doctor was in the unit when it wasn't true.

And so on and so forth!

The Jury and the public has so much clearer picture now, and we are only in the MIDDLE of cross examination.

JMO
 
A re-cap of some aspects of baby H's case.


The first alleged attempted murder happened in the early morning hours of 26th Sept, the second in the early morning hours of 27th Sep.


(parts of) electronic evidence -
The sequence goes to the night shift of September 25-26, in which Lucy Letby is listed as a designated nurse in nursery room 1 for Child H. No other babies are in nursery room 1, with four babies (including Child G) in room 2, four in room 3 and four in room 4.

Dr Alison Ventress confirms in a clinical record she was crash called at 3.24am as Child H "had desat requiring bagging...Sats 60s then heart rate down to less than 100 so nurses crash called, wasn't being handled at all, no trigger identified.'

Dr John Gibbs, consultant paediatrician, records he was called from home at 3.30am and arrived at the neonatal unit at 3.36am. He saw 'CPR in progress', [...]

Letby records a Child H family communication at 4.28am: 'Parents visiting at start of shift. Updated on condition and advised to try and rest overnight. Midwife contacted during resus to [help take mum to the unit].'
A follow-up note said parents were concerned about the possibility of brain damage, and Child H remained poorly and could relapse. Dr John Gibbs offered a blessing to be administered and the parents accepted the offer.
Child H was then blessed with parents and family members present.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, January 18

Text messages after [1st] shift at approx 9am [BBM] -

Yvonne Griffiths (deputy manager) to LL: "Hope you have a good sleep. I just want to commend you for all you hard work these last few nights. You composed yourself very well during a stressful situation. It's nice to see your confidence grow as you advance through your career x"

LL messages a colleague, who cannot be named, asking her how she should reply. The conversation alludes to a disagreement among the neonatal unit staff regarding a Christening for one of the babies in the unit.

LL to YG: "Thank you. That's really nice to hear as I gather you are aware of some of the not so positive comments that have been made recently regarding my role which I have found quite upsetting. "Our job is a pleasure to do & just hope I do the best for the babies & their Family. Thank you to you & [another colleague] for your support X".

LL to her colleague: "I'm still frustrated/upset with what's gone on but don't think such rubbish nights & being tired help"

Colleague: "Good reply as it's important they know about the bitchiness which is all it is. Yes re tired..." "Anyway. You're a star. You've done yourself proud. You've given positive memories to the family whatever the outcome. Let's hope they can tease her in a few yrs about her 'attention seeking' ways. Sleep well. Xx "Always a pleasure to work with you even if we're a '[s***] magnet' team".

Lucy Letby: Nurse 'commended' for work during 'stressful situation'


The following nightshift, the night of the second alleged attempted murder of baby H, 26-27, nurse Shelley Tomlins was baby H's designated nurse and LL was allocated to a different nursery but texted a colleague to say she was helping Shelley with H and didn't have the responsibility. After the shift LL texted her mentor colleague and Dr Ventress (who were both on duty for the first collapse) to tell them about the resus just before 1am lasting 7 minutes. Her mentor says there's something odd with H, and LL replies none of them had breaks and it always seems to happen at night when less people, and they then discuss a change of unit, with LL saying she still thinks about the Women's. Dr Ventress asks if they know why it happened this time, and tells LL she's a fab nurse.


(part of) LL's mentor's testimony about the disputes involving LL -

Mr Myers asked the witness: “Was there an issue with Lucy Letby being relatively junior compared to others and some debate about her going into Nursery One to look after more poorly babies?

“Sometimes, yes,” she replied.

Mr Myers said: “And sometimes a bit of an under-the-surface dispute about that, is that correct?”

The witness said: “Yes.”

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’


(parts of) LL's evidence in chief for baby H -

[...]

The second event is being discussed.

[...]

Letby is asked if she had any awareness of any of the events, including at 0055, the event Letby is being blamed for by the prosecution.
Letby: "No."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, May 15 - defence continues

Five handover sheets featured the name of Child H - who we are hearing about currently.
"Why is it that you have a handover sheet for Child H in that bag when police come to your house several years later?" asks Ben Myers KC.
"It's just come back with me from working and inadvertently left in my home," Letby replies.
On the other handover sheets referring to Child H, Letby says they had not been taken out of her pocket at the end of her shift.
"They've come home with me and I've not disposed of them," she says.

[...]

In her response, Letby thanks her colleague and says it was "nice to hear" as she had received "not so nice comments" from other staff about her role, which she found "upsetting".
Asked what she is referring to, the defendant tells the court other colleagues were "not happy" with her looking after babies in the intensive care nursery as she was newly qualified.
"They wanted that experience and we had got that," she says.

Lucy Letby trial as it happened: Letby's Facebook messages shown in court - as lawyer says she 'cooked the records'



(parts of) LL's cross-examination for baby H -

The court hears this was with regard to Letby and colleague Shelley Tomlins being allocated shifts in room 1, over other nurses who needed the experience.
Letby says she cannot recall which nurses, specifically, had been making those comments, but they were band 6 nurses. Letby agrees this message followed events for Child H.
Mr Johnson refers to the staffing rota for September 25-26. Letby says it was not the night staff who were making the comments. Mr Johnson asks if it was the day staff, why did they allocate Child H to Letby? Letby replies the comments had come in recent days prior to this.

[...]
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 24 - cross-examination continues

Letby has previously said she was looking after "another severely disabled baby" at the time Child H first collapsed.
But paperwork from the unit shows the severely disabled baby in question was born later in the shift.

Lucy Letby trial as it happened: Letby's Facebook messages shown in court - as lawyer says she 'cooked the records'


(2/2) NJKC: "Were people talking about you being associated with the collapses of lots of children at different times?"
LL: "Not at all"
NJKC: "Was that the negative comments you were talking about?"
LL: "No"
NJKC: "Were people starting to notice (the association)?"
LL: "No"

https://twitter.com/JudithMoritz

[re shift of first collapse -]

Letby says she cannot recall which SHO was on duty that night. Mr Johnson says the SHO on duty was Jessica Scott, and she has not recorded a note saying she was present for this.

[...]

Mr Johnson says Child H's father's statement, which was agreed evidence, did not mention a collapse or an SHO being present.
Letby denies lying.

Dr Alison Ventress records a note for Child H, timed 11.50pm. It begins 'Several episodes of desaturation in past 2 hours...1st one after gas taken...became agitated...'
Mr Johnson says Letby told this information to Dr Ventress.
Letby says she did not know if she told her this information, she may have been present in the room.

[re shift of second collapse -]

At 12.45am on September 27, Letby is recorded as 'liking' a post on Facebook. At 12.46am, she liked a Facebook photo posted by a colleague.
Letby says she may have been on her break at this point.


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues
 
A re-cap of some aspects of baby H's case.


The first alleged attempted murder happened in the early morning hours of 26th Sept, the second in the early morning hours of 27th Sep.


(parts of) electronic evidence -
The sequence goes to the night shift of September 25-26, in which Lucy Letby is listed as a designated nurse in nursery room 1 for Child H. No other babies are in nursery room 1, with four babies (including Child G) in room 2, four in room 3 and four in room 4.

Dr Alison Ventress confirms in a clinical record she was crash called at 3.24am as Child H "had desat requiring bagging...Sats 60s then heart rate down to less than 100 so nurses crash called, wasn't being handled at all, no trigger identified.'

Dr John Gibbs, consultant paediatrician, records he was called from home at 3.30am and arrived at the neonatal unit at 3.36am. He saw 'CPR in progress', [...]

Letby records a Child H family communication at 4.28am: 'Parents visiting at start of shift. Updated on condition and advised to try and rest overnight. Midwife contacted during resus to [help take mum to the unit].'
A follow-up note said parents were concerned about the possibility of brain damage, and Child H remained poorly and could relapse. Dr John Gibbs offered a blessing to be administered and the parents accepted the offer.
Child H was then blessed with parents and family members present.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, January 18

Text messages after [1st] shift at approx 9am [BBM] -

Yvonne Griffiths (deputy manager) to LL: "Hope you have a good sleep. I just want to commend you for all you hard work these last few nights. You composed yourself very well during a stressful situation. It's nice to see your confidence grow as you advance through your career x"

LL messages a colleague, who cannot be named, asking her how she should reply. The conversation alludes to a disagreement among the neonatal unit staff regarding a Christening for one of the babies in the unit.

LL to YG: "Thank you. That's really nice to hear as I gather you are aware of some of the not so positive comments that have been made recently regarding my role which I have found quite upsetting. "Our job is a pleasure to do & just hope I do the best for the babies & their Family. Thank you to you & [another colleague] for your support X".

LL to her colleague: "I'm still frustrated/upset with what's gone on but don't think such rubbish nights & being tired help"

Colleague: "Good reply as it's important they know about the bitchiness which is all it is. Yes re tired..." "Anyway. You're a star. You've done yourself proud. You've given positive memories to the family whatever the outcome. Let's hope they can tease her in a few yrs about her 'attention seeking' ways. Sleep well. Xx "Always a pleasure to work with you even if we're a '[s***] magnet' team".

Lucy Letby: Nurse 'commended' for work during 'stressful situation'


The following nightshift, the night of the second alleged attempted murder of baby H, 26-27, nurse Shelley Tomlins was baby H's designated nurse and LL was allocated to a different nursery but texted a colleague to say she was helping Shelley with H and didn't have the responsibility. After the shift LL texted her mentor colleague and Dr Ventress (who were both on duty for the first collapse) to tell them about the resus just before 1am lasting 7 minutes. Her mentor says there's something odd with H, and LL replies none of them had breaks and it always seems to happen at night when less people, and they then discuss a change of unit, with LL saying she still thinks about the Women's. Dr Ventress asks if they know why it happened this time, and tells LL she's a fab nurse.


(part of) LL's mentor's testimony about the disputes involving LL -

Mr Myers asked the witness: “Was there an issue with Lucy Letby being relatively junior compared to others and some debate about her going into Nursery One to look after more poorly babies?

“Sometimes, yes,” she replied.

Mr Myers said: “And sometimes a bit of an under-the-surface dispute about that, is that correct?”

The witness said: “Yes.”

Lucy Letby: Medics could find no reason why baby ‘suddenly collapsed’


(parts of) LL's evidence in chief for baby H -

[...]

The second event is being discussed.

[...]

Letby is asked if she had any awareness of any of the events, including at 0055, the event Letby is being blamed for by the prosecution.
Letby: "No."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, May 15 - defence continues

Five handover sheets featured the name of Child H - who we are hearing about currently.
"Why is it that you have a handover sheet for Child H in that bag when police come to your house several years later?" asks Ben Myers KC.
"It's just come back with me from working and inadvertently left in my home," Letby replies.
On the other handover sheets referring to Child H, Letby says they had not been taken out of her pocket at the end of her shift.
"They've come home with me and I've not disposed of them," she says.

[...]

In her response, Letby thanks her colleague and says it was "nice to hear" as she had received "not so nice comments" from other staff about her role, which she found "upsetting".
Asked what she is referring to, the defendant tells the court other colleagues were "not happy" with her looking after babies in the intensive care nursery as she was newly qualified.
"They wanted that experience and we had got that," she says.

Lucy Letby trial as it happened: Letby's Facebook messages shown in court - as lawyer says she 'cooked the records'



(parts of) LL's cross-examination for baby H -

The court hears this was with regard to Letby and colleague Shelley Tomlins being allocated shifts in room 1, over other nurses who needed the experience.
Letby says she cannot recall which nurses, specifically, had been making those comments, but they were band 6 nurses. Letby agrees this message followed events for Child H.
Mr Johnson refers to the staffing rota for September 25-26. Letby says it was not the night staff who were making the comments. Mr Johnson asks if it was the day staff, why did they allocate Child H to Letby? Letby replies the comments had come in recent days prior to this.

[...]
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 24 - cross-examination continues

Letby has previously said she was looking after "another severely disabled baby" at the time Child H first collapsed.
But paperwork from the unit shows the severely disabled baby in question was born later in the shift.

Lucy Letby trial as it happened: Letby's Facebook messages shown in court - as lawyer says she 'cooked the records'


(2/2) NJKC: "Were people talking about you being associated with the collapses of lots of children at different times?"
LL: "Not at all"
NJKC: "Was that the negative comments you were talking about?"
LL: "No"
NJKC: "Were people starting to notice (the association)?"
LL: "No"

https://twitter.com/JudithMoritz

[re shift of first collapse -]

Letby says she cannot recall which SHO was on duty that night. Mr Johnson says the SHO on duty was Jessica Scott, and she has not recorded a note saying she was present for this.

[...]

Mr Johnson says Child H's father's statement, which was agreed evidence, did not mention a collapse or an SHO being present.
Letby denies lying.

Dr Alison Ventress records a note for Child H, timed 11.50pm. It begins 'Several episodes of desaturation in past 2 hours...1st one after gas taken...became agitated...'
Mr Johnson says Letby told this information to Dr Ventress.
Letby says she did not know if she told her this information, she may have been present in the room.

[re shift of second collapse -]

At 12.45am on September 27, Letby is recorded as 'liking' a post on Facebook. At 12.46am, she liked a Facebook photo posted by a colleague.
Letby says she may have been on her break at this point.


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues
But to add to this, baby H’s father doesn’t mention a desat or a SHO being present. He says he left the ward at about midnight.

But Dr Ventress’ own notes say she attended at 2350 and moved the chest drain back 4 cm. So he should have been there when this happened, but he doesn’t mention it in his recollection.

So I question how reliable baby H’s father’s memory is here (I don’t for a second think he is lying to be clear).
 
But to add to this, baby H’s father doesn’t mention a desat or a SHO being present. He says he left the ward at about midnight.

But Dr Ventress’ own notes say she attended at 2350 and moved the chest drain back 4 cm. So he should have been there when this happened, but he doesn’t mention it in his recollection.

So I question how reliable baby H’s father’s memory is here (I don’t for a second think he is lying to be clear).

I'm totally lost! Would you be able to point to the report where Dr. V. pulled back the drain by any chance? Thanks!
 
Sorry, wrong way round , Dr V’s notes said “advanced back in to 4cm as was almost out .”

So she pushed it back in, not pulled it out.


Here is an earlier reference to the event, I do wish we could view the original witness statements, and pathology reports, since many of the media reports are rather abstract.
 
I can’t help but ponder, how a seemingly normal young nurse, who enjoyed socialising, watching strictly and coronation street (i.e., different strokes for different folks ) without any previous red flags indicative of a psychopathology (e.g., a dark triad) throughout her personal life or previous work - has ended up on trial accused of such monstrous crimes.
 
One thing that surprises me about LL IF she is guilty is the fact that we haven’t heard of her searching for anything incriminating on her devices.Considering she has left the notes, hasn’t destroyed the hand over sheets and has been overall really sloppy, it surprises me there is nothing else on her search history or something more incriminating.
 
I’m wondering about her testimony regarding air embolism and her knowledge of it. Specifically what she had been taught about it. she had passed that exam into Being qualified in 2014 right?

i would Like to. Know if anyone does what that training would entail and what paperwork a nurse would have to complete in order to qualify for the itu training. I’m also wondering if that training would be a nationwide nhs standard or if the training was specific to that trust ?

she said she didn’t know what one ”AE” was in regards to her police interview, if that paper contradicts her account.
I recall she stated she was aware of AE since all nurses were made aware of the dangers, hence why they aspirate - but that she was not confident (at the time) in recognising the signs if one had occurred.
 
I can’t help but ponder, how a seemingly normal young nurse, who enjoyed socialising, watching strictly and coronation street (i.e., different strokes for different folks ) without any previous red flags indicative of a psychopathology (e.g., a dark triad) throughout her personal life or previous work - has ended up on trial accused of such monstrous crimes.
Quite so .

The absence of any real context to all of this has always puzzled me.

I appreciate that pre trial rulings will have taken place, and in any criminal trial, it can’t turn into the prosecution reciting from a list every bad thing the accused has ever done in their life which may indicate guilt.

But if guilty, what was happening that would
Make a person start allegedly killing when they did ?

We had the prosecution showing us endless text messages between LL and the Milky Bar Kid . I thought that was building to some grand reveal of an extra marital affair . But it never went anywhere with the prosecution ‘s case in chief ; LL said in her evidence that it was just a friendship and the prosecution didn’t get up and accuse her of lying about it . So what was the point of all that?

If guilty, as things stand based on the evidence we have been presented with , LL apparently one day just went into work and within 30 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly attacked (and murdered) a baby for the first time (baby A) with no prior warning or concerning behaviour having been observed by anyone, and after working without incident at the COCH for 4 years.

Very difficult to reconcile this with what we know about other serial killers and particularly medical serial killers.

I hope the picture becomes clearer for us in the fullness of time .
 
One thing that surprises me about LL IF she is guilty is the fact that we haven’t heard of her searching for anything incriminating on her devices.Considering she has left the notes, hasn’t destroyed the hand over sheets and has been overall really sloppy, it surprises me there is nothing else on her search history or something more incriminating.
I agree 100% - IMO - if she was so clever and manipulative to pull the wool over her colleagues and friends eyes, why be so sloppy by keeping excessive handover sheets (i.e., if associated with sinister means); why is there no definitive evidence - the majority is circumstantial. JMO
 
One thing that surprises me about LL IF she is guilty is the fact that we haven’t heard of her searching for anything incriminating on her devices.Considering she has left the notes, hasn’t destroyed the hand over sheets and has been overall really sloppy, it surprises me there is nothing else on her search history or something more incriminating.
She is a medic. She knows the risks of certain practices.

JMO
 
Quite so .

The absence of any real context to all of this has always puzzled me.

I appreciate that pre trial rulings will have taken place, and in any criminal trial, it can’t turn into the prosecution reciting from a list every bad thing the accused has ever done in their life which may indicate guilt.

But if guilty, what was happening that would
Make a person start allegedly killing when they did ?

We had the prosecution showing us endless text messages between LL and the Milky Bar Kid . I thought that was building to some grand reveal of an extra marital affair . But it never went anywhere with the prosecution ‘s case in chief ; LL said in her evidence that it was just a friendship and the prosecution didn’t get up and accuse her of lying about it . So what was the point of all that?

If guilty, as things stand based on the evidence we have been presented with , LL apparently one day just went into work and within 30 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly attacked (and murdered) a baby for the first time (baby A) with no prior warning or concerning behaviour having been observed by anyone, and after working without incident at the COCH for 4 years.

Very difficult to reconcile this with what we know about other serial killers and particularly medical serial killers.

I hope the picture becomes clearer for us in the fullness of time .
:-D))) .. the milky bar kid lol
 
One thing that surprises me about LL IF she is guilty is the fact that we haven’t heard of her searching for anything incriminating on her devices.Considering she has left the notes, hasn’t destroyed the hand over sheets and has been overall really sloppy, it surprises me there is nothing else on her search history or something more incriminating.
Indeed. She seems glued to her phone and addicted to looking people up on Facebook .

Maybe if guilty, she didn’t search on the internet because it would leave a trail. But it is somewhat difficult to reconcile a person who would be sure never to search for certain things online because they leave a trail with someone who if guilty stashes hundreds of handover notes in their home and doesn’t get rid of them when they are removed from clinical duties because the doctors are suspicious of them.
 
She is a medic. She knows the risks of certain practices.

JMO
Technically speaking, nurses are not generally referred to as medics, since they do not cover the breadth or depth of knowledge, that doctors do during their studies; similarly with duties post-graduating. Thus, this term is normally reserved for doctors or other members of the immediate medical team.
 
Technically speaking, nurses are not generally referred to as medics, since they do not cover the breadth or depth of knowledge, that doctors do during their studies; similarly with duties post-graduating. Thus, this term is normally reserved for doctors or other members of the immediate medical team.
Do you mean nursing is not part of medicine? o_O
 
I did not state that specifically, I am just explaining that nurses are not taught according to the same medical model as doctors, or other members of the immediate medical team.
Really?
So, what exactly was she studying for 3 years at University if not medical matters?
 
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