UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[Jazmania]

May I ask where these figures come from and who states that this is "rare"?

I would suggest that in terms births 1/60k is not "rare" at all. Whereas 1/200m is exceedingly rare given that there were "only" 133m births last year.

How many people die and how many are born each year?

Google, essentially. There's a range of odds given between the two figures. As you say the estimates vary wildly. It's not something that's easy to put an exact figure on.

Identical Triplets - What You Need to Know - Huggies AU.

Or this article How Triplets Can Be Identical

which says:

Research on the prevalence of monozygotic triplets varies. A 2012 case report of a healthy set of spontaneously conceived three identical triplet boys lists the incidence at 1 in 100,000 live births.1 Most reported cases are conceived through assisted reproductive techniques.

 

[katydid23]

I can imagine that if guilty, she could be more of an emotional manipulator, instead of having outbursts of rage or violence, if guilty, she may have used gaslighting in the form of saying/doing something then denying it happened, controlling a narrative and influencing people’s opinions of others. Giving multiple versions of a tale and differing versions of herself depending on who she’s speaking to.

To her parents always the hero of the hour and angelic, to acquaintances slightly odd, awkward, maybe arrogant at times. To close friends more arrogance disguised as humour, shy and emotional, maybe a bit needy and emotionally draining but in what those close to her believe is due to being emotionally vulnerable. Any possible enemies would be those who saw straight through her, recognised lies and manipulation, refused to be gaslit and questioned inconsistencies.

Narcissists mainly associate with slightly vulnerable people, genuinely kind and non confrontational people who they know won’t call them out on their behaviour, those they’ve known so long that they can’t or won’t consider that someone may have used them to meet their own needs. They tend to avoid more stubborn, head strong individuals who aren’t afraid to confront them.

This is only if guilty though - she could still be completely innocent and genuinely a quiet, shy and misunderstood person.

All MOO

I can see the gaslighting behaviour in some of the texts to her coworkers, and I am starting to understand why they were included in the evidence.

I just looked and can't find them, now, I'll keep looking---but there is a very interesting exchange described a couple of days ago---where it said that LL was texting coworkers, complaining about a nurse she was on duty with that day---and saying that the nurse was 'doing nothing but moaning all day' because she felt sick.

Then there is a text she sent to the sick co-worker, saying " Hey, Hope you are feeling better..." [or something to that effect]

It is just a little thing, not a big deal, but it is a window into how she manipulates others and gaslights them. Talking behind her coworkers back one minute and then sending a smiley 'caring' but fake text the next.

I think the jury can pick up on things like this---the simplicity of reading one's messages to others can show you who somebody is . She was being fake and dishonest, towards her friends and colleagues. So does that mean she is less credible when she texts about details of the babies and her observations? I think that is what NJ was going for.

 

[ColourPurple]

Just trying to juggle the thought that on one hand we have someone who honestly thinks “bastards” is a big insult and on the other that same individual may well be guilty As charged. Along with difficulty in putting the evidence together.

Well it's not exactly a small insult. It's not like she wrote "Cads"or "rotters"! But I don't think think use of swear words is indicative of whether or not you could be a serial killer anyway. JMO

 

[Dotta]

Well it's not exactly a small insult. It's not like she wrote "Cads"or "rotters"! But I don't think think use of swear words is indicative of whether or not you could be a serial killer anyway. JMO

The new words I learn here!

 

[ColourPurple]

The new words I learn here!

"Scamps" and "rogues" are another couple for you lol.

Cads, rotters, scamps and rogues you could use in church or to your teacher. "B*stards" you definitely couldn't!

 

[katydid23]

Letby says a 20ml saline bolus was given to Child O in response to a poor blood gas record. She says there was a delay as there was an issue with getting the line for Child O. She says she believes the bolus, which has 'time started: 1440', was in response to Child O's collapse.

A doctor's note recorded for the '~1440' collapse: '10ml/kg 0.9% sodium chloride bolus already given.'
Letby agrees the two desaturations for Child O that day were "profound" ones.
Letby's note: 'Approx 1440 [Child O] had a profound desaturation to 30s followed by bradycardia. Mottled++ and abdomen red and distended. Transferred to nursery 1 and Neopuff ventilation commenced. Perfusion poor'

Letby, when questioned, says babies would "frequently desaturate", to this level, and this happened prior to June 2015, and "often".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 8 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Here is another example where LL confidently answers a question, with a made up falsehood, that sounds believable.


Letby, when questioned, says babies would "frequently desaturate", to this level, and this happened prior to June 2015, and "often".



Babies do not "frequently desaturate" down to 30%. And no, it doesn't happen "often" though she tries to convince the court it does. But she says it with such a breezy confidence.

I don't know if NJ refuted it or not.

 

[Dotta]

"Scamps" and "rogues" are another couple for you lol.

Cads, rotters, scamps and rogues you could use in church or to your teacher. "B*stards" you definitely couldn't!

Haha
"Rotter" might be my favourite, especially when a person addressed will look at me with a blank stare.
I use such words rarely and only in foreign language, happy not to be understood

 

[Dotta]

Babies do not "frequently desaturate" down to 30%. And no, it doesn't happen "often" though she tries to convince the court it does. But she says it with such a breezy confidence.

I don't know if NJ refuted it or not.

It reminds me of her stating that children gulp air when vomiting!

 

[marynnu]

"Scamps" and "rogues" are another couple for you lol.

Cads, rotters, scamps and rogues you could use in church or to your teacher. "B*stards" you definitely couldn't!

The new words I learn here!

I used to work with a Chinese nurse who had lived here for over 30 years, but some terms had totally passed her by so she would ask her colleagues for an explanation. My personal favourite was "Janet, tell me, what is this 'wan*er?' "

 

[katydid23]

Seems Ms. Letby became a bit complacent there, adding CPAP ventilation to the blood gas chart but forgetting to add it to the observation notes.

Does a nurse need to get a prescription or an OK from a doctor to put a child on CPAP. I know if the child is deteriorating and thus desaturating, one would quickly grab oxygen for them and then call for help. But if LL decided Baby O needed a little oxygen support could she put her on CPAP on her own authority?

I'm just wondering if there would have to be a doctors note or signature to see if the baby was really on CPAP at that time.

 

[esther43]

Does a nurse need to get a prescription or an OK from a doctor to put a child on CPAP. I know if the child is deteriorating and thus desaturating, one would quickly grab oxygen for them and then call for help. But if LL decided Baby O needed a little oxygen support could she put her on CPAP on her own authority?

I'm just wondering if there would have to be a doctors note or signature to see if the baby was really on CPAP at that time.

Oh yeah, definitely needs permission from the doctor. A nurse can recommend to the Dr that baby may benefit from CPAP but Dr makes the final call on that.

 

[marynnu]

Does a nurse need to get a prescription or an OK from a doctor to put a child on CPAP. I know if the child is deteriorating and thus desaturating, one would quickly grab oxygen for them and then call for help. But if LL decided Baby O needed a little oxygen support could she put her on CPAP on her own authority?

I'm just wondering if there would have to be a doctors note or signature to see if the baby was really on CPAP at that time.

In my experience this is a decision for a doctor (or ANNP). The doctor should record it in the notes, but it would definitely be charted somewhere either way.

 

[ColourPurple]

The appearance was never an issue for me. It was always about giving someone the benefit of the doubt, until I couldn't any more.

I think that's what most people following the trial have done. But the point at which they reach that stage differs (for those who have). JMO

 

[katydid23]

It reminds me of her stating that children gulp air when vomiting!

We should make a list [ I'll have to find her exact wording for these Letby-isms]

Things she said with great confidence in reply to a probing question, which didn't hold up to scrutiny:

---Yes, children often gulp air when vomiting

---Babies frequently desaturate down to 30%---it happens often [and did many times in COCH, pre-2015]

---The nurseries are always kept brightly lit so we can see the babies skin colour, for safety sake

---We often sit back and wait to see if the baby recovers on their own [when referring to a 25 weeker, not breathing]
[ the attorneys made an 'agreed upon 'statement that this is not protocol for premature babies]

---Most of the diagnoses she made by text, for the poorly babies who collapsed around her, would fit into this criteria

---"Trust me, I'm a nurse---your baby is fine"

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I can see the gaslighting behaviour in some of the texts to her coworkers, and I am starting to understand why they were included in the evidence.

I just looked and can't find them, now, I'll keep looking---but there is a very interesting exchange described a couple of days ago---where it said that LL was texting coworkers, complaining about a nurse she was on duty with that day---and saying that the nurse was 'doing nothing but moaning all day' because she felt sick.

Then there is a text she sent to the sick co-worker, saying " Hey, Hope you are feeling better..." [or something to that effect]

It is just a little thing, not a big deal, but it is a window into how she manipulates others and gaslights them. Talking behind her coworkers back one minute and then sending a smiley 'caring' but fake text the next.

I think the jury can pick up on things like this---the simplicity of reading one's messages to others can show you who somebody is . She was being fake and dishonest, towards her friends and colleagues. So does that mean she is less credible when she texts about details of the babies and her observations? I think that is what NJ was going for.

I believe the messages she sent prior to baby C’s collapse show how she was attempting to emotionally manipulate her colleague IMO..
A message sent to Letby on June 13, at 9.48pm, says: "You ok? x"

Letby replies: "I just keep thinking about Mon. Feel like I need to be in [neonatal unit room] 1 to overcome it, but [nursing colleague] said no x"

The colleague responds: "I agree with her, don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ITU, you need to let it go or it will eat you up..."

Letby responds: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head."
Letby adds: "It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"

The colleague responds: "Well it's up to you but I don't think it's going to help."

After further messages are exchanged, the colleague suggests: "Why don't you go in 1 for a bit?"

Letby responds: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1."

Letby later adds: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job. Just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

^^^ IMO this attempt at emotional manipulation did not work, she was IMO trying to get someone on her side so she could then say ‘even (colleague) agrees it would be good for me to be in room 1’ in the hope she’d get her own way. Unfortunately it backfired and her colleague didn’t agree with her. Upon realising that she’s not going to agree LL abruptly ends the conversation by saying ‘forget I said anything’, and addsabout there not being ‘much team spirit’ instead, her colleague responds saying ‘I won’t forget’. This response IMO if guilty may have bruised her ego. If guilty, LL realising that she isn’t in control of the situation as her colleague will not be coerced with her manipulation, maybe in her frustration at not getting her own way could have taken her anger out on baby C who collapsed minutes later in an act of defiance to establish power and control.

All MOO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Well it's not exactly a small insult. It's not like she wrote "Cads"or "rotters"! But I don't think think use of swear words is indicative of whether or not you could be a serial killer anyway. JMO

“Cads and rotters”….. Thought I’d been transported to a Jilly Cooper novel for a minute there !!

 

[Jayney404]

I believe the messages she sent prior to baby C’s collapse show how she was attempting to emotionally manipulate her colleague IMO..
A message sent to Letby on June 13, at 9.48pm, says: "You ok? x"

Letby replies: "I just keep thinking about Mon. Feel like I need to be in [neonatal unit room] 1 to overcome it, but [nursing colleague] said no x"

The colleague responds: "I agree with her, don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ITU, you need to let it go or it will eat you up..."

Letby responds: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head."
Letby adds: "It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"

The colleague responds: "Well it's up to you but I don't think it's going to help."

After further messages are exchanged, the colleague suggests: "Why don't you go in 1 for a bit?"

Letby responds: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1."

Letby later adds: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job. Just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

^^^ IMO this attempt at emotional manipulation did not work, she was IMO trying to get someone on her side so she could then say ‘even (colleague) agrees it would be good for me to be in room 1’ in the hope she’d get her own way. Unfortunately it backfired and her colleague didn’t agree with her. Upon realising that she’s not going to agree LL abruptly ends the conversation by saying ‘forget I said anything’, and addsabout there not being ‘much team spirit’ instead, her colleague responds saying ‘I won’t forget’. This response IMO if guilty may have bruised her ego. If guilty, LL realising that she isn’t in control of the situation as her colleague will not be coerced with her manipulation, maybe in her frustration at not getting her own way could have taken her anger out on baby C who collapsed minutes later in an act of defiance to establish power and control.

All MOO

Yes if guilty these messages tend to be either bitching, fishing for information or setting up a narrative pre collapses.

Also feels a little like enjoying being the first person to give bad news about deaths and testing the water as to who is suspicious.
JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I believe the messages she sent prior to baby C’s collapse show how she was attempting to emotionally manipulate her colleague IMO..
A message sent to Letby on June 13, at 9.48pm, says: "You ok? x"

Letby replies: "I just keep thinking about Mon. Feel like I need to be in [neonatal unit room] 1 to overcome it, but [nursing colleague] said no x"

The colleague responds: "I agree with her, don't think it will help. You need a break from full-on ITU, you need to let it go or it will eat you up..."

Letby responds: "Not the vented baby necessarily, I just feel I need to be in 1, to get the image out of my head."
Letby adds: "It probably sounds odd but it's how I feel x"

The colleague responds: "Well it's up to you but I don't think it's going to help."

After further messages are exchanged, the colleague suggests: "Why don't you go in 1 for a bit?"

Letby responds: "Yeah, I have done a couple of meds in 1."

Letby later adds: "Forget I said anything, I will be fine, it's part of the job. Just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight x"

^^^ IMO this attempt at emotional manipulation did not work, she was IMO trying to get someone on her side so she could then say ‘even (colleague) agrees it would be good for me to be in room 1’ in the hope she’d get her own way. Unfortunately it backfired and her colleague didn’t agree with her. Upon realising that she’s not going to agree LL abruptly ends the conversation by saying ‘forget I said anything’, and addsabout there not being ‘much team spirit’ instead, her colleague responds saying ‘I won’t forget’. This response IMO if guilty may have bruised her ego. If guilty, LL realising that she isn’t in control of the situation as her colleague will not be coerced with her manipulation, maybe in her frustration at not getting her own way could have taken her anger out on baby C who collapsed minutes later in an act of defiance to establish power and control.

All MOO

Similar to saying "I was more experienced than Ashleigh, so I knew what I was looking for...at", then 'I didn't mean it like that, I'm finding it hard to concentrate on all of these dates at the moment", crying, and causing an early adjournment of the trial. She can't take it when she isn't succeeding in manipulating others IMO

 

[Jayney404]

Similar to saying "I was more experienced than Ashleigh, so I knew what I was looking for...at", then 'I didn't mean it like that, I'm finding it hard to concentrate on all of these dates at the moment", crying, and causing an early adjournment of the trial. She can't take it when she isn't succeeding in manipulating others IMO

Completely agree and this is manipulation in itself (if guilty) to stop proceedings and avoid the difficult questioning.

 

[katydid23]

Judith Moritz


Lucy Letby trial: I can’t be at court today. Follow my colleague
@MrDanDonoghue
for updates. Back next week (court is only sitting Weds/Thurs though).





Dan O'Donoghue


Lucy Letby will be back in the witness box at Manchester Crown Court this morning. It's the nurse's 14th day giving evidence. Nick Johnson KC is due to wrap up his cross examination today.