UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[LadyEdgeworth]

I've been wondering what it might mean, in terms of their psychology, if someone at the hospital set out to kill a baby with insulin but didn't particularly care if they weren't on duty to see it happening.

It's certainly odd to me. IMO most people who kill in this way do like to see their victim actually die, however I think LL likes more to see the outcome of her actions rather than the specific death itself. I think this is why she checks the facebooks, she wants to see the effect she has had on those parents lives and feel like 'I did that'. I don't think she's ALLEGEDLY a mission oriented or hedonistic serial killer but potentially more power/control type.

This is all speculation obviously and unless LL herself confessed or explained we won't ever truly know the motive I think.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Could you please show us the source where you can see the investigation also looking into still births please?

Also can you show us the source where the NEONATAL unit was dealing with 2200 births please?

“One of the highest stillbirth and neonatal death rates in the country has been found at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s maternity unit.

This week a major study revealed the rate of babies born dead at the site was at least 10% higher than would be expected at other similar maternity units.”

Countess of Chester has one of highest baby death rates in country

Of the 7,000 births in the Besti Cadwaladr University Health Board area a year around 600 North Wales babies are delivered at the Chester hospital

www.dailypost.co.uk

the above article states 600 babies are born per year at coch but the report below is more correct.

“The hospital provides midwifery and consultant led maternity care across 52 maternity beds. Between July 2020 and June 2021 there were 2,295 babies birthed under the care of this service.”

The Countess of Chester Hospital - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Not seeing any reporting so far, twitter is blocked at my work so if there's live tweeting I can't see it

 

[BabaVanga]

https://twitter.com/mrdandonoghue?s=21&t=u2vupBcRfslqMWhy4znTlA this guy is reporting on Twitter

 

[Sweeper2000]

“One of the highest stillbirth and neonatal death rates in the country has been found at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s maternity unit.

This week a major study revealed the rate of babies born dead at the site was at least 10% higher than would be expected at other similar maternity units.”

Countess of Chester has one of highest baby death rates in country

Of the 7,000 births in the Besti Cadwaladr University Health Board area a year around 600 North Wales babies are delivered at the Chester hospital

www.dailypost.co.uk

the above article states 600 babies are born per year at coch but the report below is more correct.

“The hospital provides midwifery and consultant led maternity care across 52 maternity beds. Between July 2020 and June 2021 there were 2,295 babies birthed under the care of this service.”

The Countess of Chester Hospital - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

i would assume the delivery unit is different to the neonatal unit with delivery Being antenatal and neonatal being post natal. Two very different disciplines. I would assume both units are in direct proximity to each other but different staff and would assume LL had nothing to do with the antenatal unit. That investigation into stillbirths on the unit suggests the neonatal not being the only one with problems and obviously if a baby not cared for properly on the antenatal unit reaches the neonatal unit in an already compromised condition then the babies survival is less likely IMO.

I would really like to know if the card Swipe access on the neonatal unit pinpoints the mother of Baby E attendance at nine pm. It’s also mentioned in the coch report that cctv covers key areas of the neonatal unit but I believe
l it’s not on the ward, so I don’t see how they didn’t record when the mother attended if she came from a separate part of the building to deliver the milk. I’m surprised this is even a thing to be ascertained using notes and not direct evidence.

it’s another thing to take note of. If feedings are routine and the feed was expected at 9 why would you alter the notes in such a blatant fashion. Presumably LL knew the mother was due at 9 and so wouldn’t have done something like strike the baby when mom is due any moment. You would think if she is trying to avoid suspicion she would have waited until after not just before mum was due to attend Assuming the compulsion is that strong. In fact if she had of waited until after the scheduled 9 pm visit the moms attendance would make it look less suspicious from the notes Not the other way around. If the mom is correct it suggests a high degree of recklessness on the part of LL. IMO.

it would be good to know if Baby E chart readings on the night suggest trauma around 9 pm but I don’t know if the equipment would pick up on it. If the injury was that significant it Would undoubtedly put that poor little body under some serious strain.

 

[katydid23]

https://twitter.com/mrdandonoghue?s=21&t=u2vupBcRfslqMWhy4znTlA this guy is reporting on Twitter

​

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue


I'm back at Manchester Crown Court for the trial of nurse Lucy Letby. We're expecting to hear expert medical evidence from Dr Dewi Evans today


Dr Dewi Evans was approached by the National Crime Agency to review the case in 2017. In a report he produced in 2018, Dr Evans set out that a number of babies in this case died as a result of an intentional injection of air into the bloodstream


Dr Evans is talking the jury through his assessment of Child E's condition in the days before his death. He says that the infant's bloods, white blood cell levels, saturation were as 'stable as you can get'....'he was active and pink, all was satisfactory'

The court is being shown heartrate and respiratory charts from the day before Child E's death, again Dr Evans says these show he was a 'stable' and 'well little baby'

Asked if it was a point of concern that the baby needed insulin, Dr Evans says 'no', he explains 'he needed insulin to control his glucose values, that’s fine, that’s what neonatal units are for'

We're now looking at medical notes and charts from the evening before Child E's collapse and death. Between 18:00 and 21:00, Dr Evans says everything was 'normal' and 'stable'

 

[Becci]

i would assume the delivery unit is different to the neonatal unit with delivery Being antenatal and neonatal being post natal. Two very different disciplines. I would assume both units are in direct proximity to each other but different staff and would assume LL had nothing to do with the antenatal unit. That investigation into stillbirths on the unit suggests the neonatal not being the only one with problems and obviously if a baby not cared for properly on the antenatal unit reaches the neonatal unit in an already compromised condition then the babies survival is less likely IMO.

I would really like to know if the card Swipe access on the neonatal unit pinpoints the mother of Baby E attendance at nine pm. It’s also mentioned in the coch report that cctv covers key areas of the neonatal unit but I believe
l it’s not on the ward, so I don’t see how they didn’t record when the mother attended if she came from a separate part of the building to deliver the milk. I’m surprised this is even a thing to be ascertained using notes and not direct evidence.

it’s another thing to take note of. If feedings are routine and the feed was expected at 9 why would you alter the notes in such a blatant fashion. Presumably LL knew the mother was due at 9 and so wouldn’t have done something like strike the baby when mom is due any moment. You would think if she is trying to avoid suspicion she would have waited until after not just before mum was due to attend Assuming the compulsion is that strong. In fact if she had of waited until after the scheduled 9 pm visit the moms attendance would make it look less suspicious from the notes Not the other way around. If the mom is correct it suggests a high degree of recklessness on the part of LL. IMO.

it would be good to know if Baby E chart readings on the night suggest trauma around 9 pm but I don’t know if the equipment would pick up on it. If the injury was that significant it Would undoubtedly put that poor little body under some serious strain.

I would presume the mum would have to press an intercom & speak through that then the door auto opens if your ok to enter. Would that be picked up like swipe data is?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I would presume the mum would have to press an intercom & speak through that then the door auto opens if your ok to enter. Would that be picked up like swipe data is?

Assuming the units are separate rather than conjoined. It’s this bit that gets my attention atm

“She said she would not have told the mum to go back upstairs.”

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

Lucy Letby is on trial in the UK, charged with the murders of 7 infants and the attempted murder of 15 other infants. Media, Maps & Timelines can be posted here. *NO DISCUSSION* in this thread or your post will be removed.

www.websleuths.com

does that mean the mother has definitely come from outside the card swipe doors? I believe the cctv is probably used at the doors to monitor access but not actually on the unit Itself but does ”cover key areas of the unit”.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue

Dr Evans is now giving his overall observations of Child E. He explains the reason for the need for insulin was that as a premature baby, his own insulin production had not yet kicked in. He notes that the baby was at risk of necrotising enterocolitis (NEC)

This is a condition that can affect newborn babies, where tissue in the bowel (small and large intestines) becomes inflamed - doctors were aware of this at the time and held off with oral feeds for the first few days of his life

Dr Evans is asked if NEC is a 'viable' explanation for what happened to Child E, he says 'no'

Earlier this week, Child E's mother told the court that the evening before her infant son died, she found him with "blood on his face" and making "horrendous" sounds. Dr Evans said this is 'difficult to explain'

He adds: 'This is not something I've seen other than in this case'




Asked for his reasoning behind Child E's death, he said there are 'two major' factors - he says the baby suffered some kind of 'trauma' which caused gastric bleeding. He says there is no innocent explanation for this and says it could have been caused with a 'stiff' implement



The second reasoning is air embolism - the intentional injection of air into the bloodstream

 

[katydid23]

On the intentional trauma that Dr Evans cites, Ben Myers KC, defending, put it to the medic that he was "looking for possible items just to support the allegation, than simply looking at all the available facts".

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue


Dr Evans repeated that he believed Child E was subjected to a trauma that did not result from a 'natural phenomenon'. He earlier suggested this could have been caused by the inappropriate use of a surgical tool known as an introducer (a thin piece of wire covered in plastic)



Another medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin, who reviewed Dr Evans' reports on this case, is now in the witness box.


Dr Bohin is now going back over Child E's medical notes and the chronology of his collapse.


4:32 AM · Nov 18, 2022·Twitter Web App

 

[Sweeper2000]

It does present compelling evidence that she did something that she wasn't supposed to, at 9PM, whether through negligence or design, it had something to do with the bleeding at that time, and then she lied to cover it up.

What's not massively clear is what that had to do with the later collapse as he was well and stable, according to Dr Harkness, over an hour later:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 17

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

On the other hand it's difficult to marry with the overall narrative of the case where she's managed to develop an effective, silent, bloodless method of inducing collapses- for whatever reason- some of them fatal, with low risk of detection. She executes this method cooly and proficiently on multiple occasions with colleagues in the vicinity, if not directly observing her. Then on this occasion she branches out to doing something (possibly impulsively?) that causes bloody injury. That's a huge risk. It would also be a massive risk to then proceed to murder him with an air embolism, inviting further investigation, including autopsy (she was lucky-on this version of events- that that didn't take place), and the risk that the mother might say something about their 9 o'clock encounter, rather than just thanking her lucky stars that no major harm seemed to have been done.

I find this interesting, looking at the alleged method Baby E was the last aside from baby I and the last was baby P to allegedly receive a AE. This suggests a shift in modus operandi, what might have caused it?

some very remarkable and obvious things were happening at the time of baby E. the investigation into Baby A, nurses saying she was having bad luck, the noted discolourations after the alleged AE which LL noted herself, this alleged interaction with the mother of Baby E and the notes and maybe more besides.

 

[Left Thoughts]

@JudithMoritz
Also reporting again today, slightly different wording from her here:

"12:08pm
The expert witness suggests that a piece of equipment made of rigid plastic may have been used to cause the injury to baby E."

MOO it's a very strong implication, suggesting a potential 'weapon'.

 

[covid2020]

@JudithMoritz
Also reporting again today, slightly different wording from her here:

"12:08pm
The expert witness suggests that a piece of equipment made of rigid plastic may have been used to cause the injury to baby E."

MOO it's a very strong implication, suggesting a potential 'weapon'.

Is this the 'surgical tool' mentioned?

 

[katydid23]

Judith Moritz
@JudithMoritz

The jury has been hearing evidence from expert prosecution witness Dr Dewi Evans, a paediatric consultant.


Dr Evans tells the court that, although baby E was premature, in the days after his birth he was “a very stable, well, little baby”.


Dr Evans is asked whether a bowel disorder which happens with some premature babies is a viable explanation for what happened to baby E. He says not.


Asked about the blood which baby E’s mum saw around his mouth, Dr Evans says “This would have been completely unexpected given baby E’s stable condition previously, it would have been very difficult to explain”


Dr Evans says that he believes baby E was bleeding because he suffered trauma from “some other form of injury” and there is no potential innocent explanation or natural cause for such a massive haemorrhage.


The expert witness suggests that a piece of equipment made of rigid plastic may have been used to cause the injury to baby


Dr Evans tells the court he believes that baby E died as a result of an injection of air, with the massive bleed caused by trauma as a contributory factor.

 

[katydid23]

Is this the 'surgical tool' mentioned?

Yes, according to Dr Evans:

Dr Evans repeated that he believed Child E was subjected to a trauma that did not result from a 'natural phenomenon'. He earlier suggested this could have been caused by the inappropriate use of a surgical tool known as an introducer (a thin piece of wire covered in plastic

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes, according to Dr Evans:

Dr Evans repeated that he believed Child E was subjected to a trauma that did not result from a 'natural phenomenon'. He earlier suggested this could have been caused by the inappropriate use of a surgical tool known as an introducer (a thin piece of wire covered in plastic

Do we know if it’s possible for this to be added to the charges?
wondering why it isn’t atm.

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue


Another medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin, who reviewed Dr Evans' reports on this case, is now in the witness box.

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Dr Bohin is now going back over Child E's medical notes and the chronology of his collapse.


Dr Bohin said it was 'a poor decision' not to carry out a post-mortem on Child E. The senior paediatric consultant responsible, who cannot be named for legal reasons, told the court earlier this week that they "now regret" not recommending a post-mortem



Dr Bohin is asked about Child E's gastric bleed. She says she has 'never' seen a nasogastric (feeding) tube causing that damage - she says the infant lost 25% of his blood volume as a result


She says she was left 'clutching at straws' to explain such a haemorrhage. One explanation she found was an extremely rate condition (only six cases globally recorded since 1968) called Dieulafoy's lesion


She said this condition is where an artery within the stomach wall spontaneously haemorrhages as a result of some inflammatory process in the gut wall

 

[notsure]

The testimony of today's witnesses so far makes it all the more astonishing that a postmortem was not performed.

 

[katydid23]

Judith Moritz


The jury is hearing evidence from a second prosecution expert witness, Dr Sandie Bohin, a neonatologist


Dr Bohin says baby E bled so heavily, he lost over 25% of his blood volume. She says "haemorrhage of this magnitude in neonates is vanishingly rare. I’ve never seen a baby have such a haemorrhage in this way".



Dr Bohin says she was "clutching at straws" when trying to find a possible innocent explanation for baby E's bleeding. She tells the jury that the only one she can come up with is a phenomenon so rare there have only been 6 recorded cases in the world since 1968.



Dr Bohin says baby E died as a result of an injection of air, and that his catastrophic bleed was not the cause of his collapse.

 

[katydid23]

Do we know if it’s possible for this to be added to the charges?
wondering why it isn’t atm.

I don't think they can prove that accusation that someone used that specific tool. It seems like an educated guess.