UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

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Does anyone know of any mental conditions which involve not only killing and a desire to inflict pain/suffering on people, but also recklessness?

Anti-social personality disorder, the modern term for psychopathy.

They thrive on power, causing suffering makes them feel powerful and God-like. It is thrilling and addictive. These people are also thrill seekers in general and crave stimulation.

They are typically very reckless because due to their different wiring in their brain, they do not become anxious easily.

The type of recklessness LL is accused of would give a psychopath extra thrills because of the risk of being caught.

Psychopaths also typically see themselves as intellectually superior to other people, giving serial killers a false sense of confidence that they won’t be caught.

Playing the kindly nurse role and successfully duping everyone around them would give a psychopath an extra power trip and the pleasure of duper’s delight.

Witnessing the devastation of the parents would make a psychopath feel powerful and God-like because of the massive impact they were capable of causing.

IMO, if guilty.
 
Does anyone know of any mental conditions which involve not only killing and a desire to inflict pain/suffering on people, but also recklessness?
Some of the typical characteristics that a person with a sadistic personality has are:
  • They enjoy seeing people hurt.
  • They enjoy inflicting pain on others.
  • They cherish the idea of others being in pain.
  • They think it is all right to cause others pain.
  • They fantasize about hurting others.
 
Some of the typical characteristics that a person with a sadistic personality has are:
  • They enjoy seeing people hurt.
  • They enjoy inflicting pain on others.
  • They cherish the idea of others being in pain.
  • They think it is all right to cause others pain.
  • They fantasize about hurting others.
Kind of the opposite definition of a nurse.
 
3:37am

Child F's blood test result from the laboratory, as shown earlier to the court today, is presented to Professor Hindmarsh. The sample was taken at 5.56pm on August 5 and collected at the Liverpool laboratory at 4.15pm on August 6.
He says the insulin reading should be in proportion to the insulin C-Peptide reading, and should be several times higher in this context.

3:41am

Prof Hindmarsh explains to the court the dangers of prolonged low blood sugar in the body, which can lead to damage to the brain.
Breakdown of fats can be used as a temporary measure, as a substitute.
The problem, he says, is if the low blood sugar is caused by excess insulin.
The insulin will 'switch off' key body formation.
He says the brain would be in a "very, very susceptible state to receiving damage".
That depends on the depth and length of the hypoglycaemia episode.
An equivalent reading of 2.3 or so would lead to 'confusion' and difficulties reading/writing.
Professor Hindmarsh says lower readings than that could lead to seizures, death of brain cells, coma, and in some cases, death.

3:47am

Professor Hindmarsh added, in his report, the insulin used in the hospital, has been used in the past 20-25 years, and is synthetic insulin.
Stocks of pig/cow insulin would not be held as regular stock or in a pharmacy. They would have to be requested.
The two types of synthetic insulin are fast-acting - ones that work within 30 minutes, applied via an injection, the effectiveness lasting 4-6 hours. The other type is long-acting, which lasts up to 12-24 hours.
The second type of insulin, he explains, is not generally used for intravenous infusions, and he has never seen any evidence of that having been done.

3:50am

Professor Hindmarsh is shown a 10ml bottle of insulin, which normally comes with an orange, self-sealing cap.
To extract the liquid from the bottle, to administer 'therapeutically', a medical professional would have to use a syringe, the court hears.
Mr Johnson says by 'therapeutically', Professor Hindmarsh means 'legitimately'. Professor Hindmarsh agrees, and says the dose would have to be measured out carefully.

3:52am

The insulin bottle exhibit is shown to members of the jury and the defence.





I am in California, the sun will be up in a few hours...better get to sleep...The link is above if someone wants to copy/paste the next portion. I think they are on a break right now...
Maybe this has already been asked about and answered--but does the hospital have some kind of inventory set up for the insulin? Shouldn't they be able to compare their purchases against their prescribed/usage and see if a bottle was missing?
 
Maybe this has already been asked about and answered--but does the hospital have some kind of inventory set up for the insulin? Shouldn't they be able to compare their purchases against their prescribed/usage and see if a bottle was missing?

The bottles are stock bottles a normal does of insulin would be in mls..tiny...a stock bottle would last months in the ward.
There wouldn't be an inventory and even 10ml would be a massive dose
 
Can someone tell me did the nurse <modsnip - name of nurse is protected by the court> they used as a witness say directly there was a second bag?

Because the evidence shows there was only one, from what I have seen.

And the same bag was probably hooked back up to the baby. And I know the nurse didn't want to admit bad caring practice but I think one bag is just much more logical. Where has the 2 bag theory come from? <modsnip - name of the nurse is protected by the court>

It seems to a be a bit of sticking point to try and say there was 2 bags because LL wasn't there right. And the defense can really push back on this, unless they have some more evidence coming forward.

Feel it's a mistake to focus on 2 bags? What do other people think
 
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Some of the typical characteristics that a person with a sadistic personality has are:
  • They enjoy seeing people hurt.
  • They enjoy inflicting pain on others.
  • They cherish the idea of others being in pain.
  • They think it is all right to cause others pain.
  • They fantasize about hurting others.

There's definitely an element of sadism . I think that's what I was trying to say before when I said it's not "just" that, IF GUILTY, she kills the babies, it's that she does so in a way that causes physical pain to them too. And then on top of that, if guilty, there's the emotional pain that she inflicts on the parents. And yes, you could argue that all serial killers inflict emotional pain on the relatives of their victims. True, but they're not normally in a position where they witness that pain first hand, immediately after the killing, and are not normally in role where they are offering support to those relatives, before and after the death.
 
Can someone tell me did the nurse <modsnip - name of the nurse is protected by the court> they used as a witness say directly there was a second bag?

Because the evidence shows there was only one, from what I have seen.

And the same bag was probably hooked back up to the baby. And I know the nurse didn't want to admit bad caring practice but I think one bag is just much more logical. Where has the 2 bag theory come from? <modsnip - name of the nurse is protected by the court>

It seems to a be a bit of sticking point to try and say there was 2 bags because LL wasn't there right. And the defense can really push back on this, unless they have some more evidence coming forward.

Feel it's a mistake to focus on 2 bags? What do other people think
Just my opinion..
I think no one can remember directly..the nurses are quoting "normal procedure" because that's what is supposed to happen.
But if the second bag was put up the batch number would be documented and signed for..which it obviously hasn't.
 
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Can someone tell me did the nurse <modsnip - name of the nurse is protected by the court> they used as a witness say directly there was a second bag?

Because the evidence shows there was only one, from what I have seen.

And the same bag was probably hooked back up to the baby. And I know the nurse didn't want to admit bad caring practice but I think one bag is just much more logical. Where has the 2 bag theory come from? <modsnip - name of the nurse is protected by the court>

It seems to a be a bit of sticking point to try and say there was 2 bags because LL wasn't there right. And the defense can really push back on this, unless they have some more evidence coming forward.

Feel it's a mistake to focus on 2 bags? What do other people think


It's based on this I think. Where the nurse says she wouldn't have re-fitted the old bag and that they would have documented if they had. Though it doesn't give the nurses name. Myers has worded his question carefully, he says "you wouldn't put up an old TPN bag would you?" rather than asking "Did you put up an old TPN bag?" or "Is it possible another nurse could have reconnected the old TPN bag?" or "Is it possible that the old TPN was used and not documented?" She appears to be talking hypothetically, as she also says she has no independent recollection of the event..

Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, asks about the administration of the drugs, and how they are administered.
The nurse says the 10% dextrose would come in 500ml bags, and can be divided up on the unit for infusions, or come available via the pharmacy in 50ml pre-made doses.
The nurse says she does not have an independent recollection of the event.
She confirms if the long line is tissued, it cannot be used again.
Mr Myers says if the long line is changed, then everything else is changed to avoid infection, including the TPN bag. The nurse confirms that would be the case.
Mr Myers: "You wouldn't put up an old [TPN] bag, would you?"

The nurse: "I wouldn't, no. And we wouldn't have put it up as we would have documented that."
 
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The difference between a psychopath and a sadist:
- psychopaths have disregard for distress they cause to others

- sadists derive pleasure from inflicting both physical or emotional pain.

Moo
 
There is a thing that struck me in this case and it concerns text messages between LL and her colleagues regarding little patients:
their discussions about babies' state, treatments, making hypotheses, etc. in whattsup.

Granted, I'm a teacher, not a nurse but I would never discuss my pupils' situation in text messages.
Never.

This is strictly confidential info, we sign confidentiality document at work.
We discuss such things at school meetings but never through social media.

Laws regarding privacy, especially concerning patients are very strict.
Moo
 
It truly is awful, my heart breaks for the families.

For some reason my mind keeps returning to a number of the attacks being made on multiple births, now this is just speculation on my part no news or anything has reported a link that I’m aware of anyhow, I was wondering if IVF or similar treatment maybe some motive to link, just where my thoughts are at the moment. Probably completely off track and just my own opinion.
 
There is a thing that struck me in this case and it concerns text messages between LL and her colleagues regarding little patients:
their discussions about babies' state, treatments, making hypotheses, etc. in whattsup.

Granted, I'm a teacher, not a nurse but I would never discuss my pupils' situation in text messages.
Never.

This is strictly confidential info, we sign confidentiality document at work.
We discuss such things at school meetings but never through social media.

Laws regarding privacy, especially concerning patients are very strict.
Moo
I would tend to agree. I think back in 2015 was prior to the new GDPR, however most UK businesses including where I work have quite strict policies regarding discussing ‘peoples cases’ outside of the work environment. I would imagine the NHS would be even more tight on these policies.
 
There's definitely an element of sadism . I think that's what I was trying to say before when I said it's not "just" that, IF GUILTY, she kills the babies, it's that she does so in a way that causes physical pain to them too. And then on top of that, if guilty, there's the emotional pain that she inflicts on the parents. And yes, you could argue that all serial killers inflict emotional pain on the relatives of their victims. True, but they're not normally in a position where they witness that pain first hand, immediately after the killing, and are not normally in role where they are offering support to those relatives, before and after the death.
Oh, and what about the "Memory box" LL prepared for parents??

If guilty, wasn't it perverse to handle the dead baby's body to make imprints of his tiny hands and feet??

And all under the disguise of empathy???

Words fail me :(

Moo
 
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