UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

[Legal]

Memory Boxes (to date - babies A, C & E) - quotes from media thread

9 June – baby A - LL wrote up nursing notes for A before going off shift. She noted: lock of hair and hand/foot prints were taken in accordance with the parents’ wishes.

9 June - baby A - A nurse's note for the day of June 9 records that the family of A were offered support throughout the day, and declined to receive a memory box for A and photographs at that time as they were too upset and bereaved.

10 June – baby A - A colleague told LL that the parents of A had taken a memory box for him. LL: 'Oh good'. 'Hoped they would find comfort'.

12 June – baby A – LL’s text to a colleague: I took pictures, hand and footprints etc.


14 June – baby C – (LL was repeatedly asked not to be in the family room) – LL texted: "Parents sat with C in the family room...persuaded them to have hand and footprints but they just wanted to go home."

The prosecutor asks the shift-leader: "Whose responsibility is it to ensure the memory box is made and who takes care of it?" Shift-leader: "The designated nurse at the time. The nurse said Melanie Taylor was the one meant to offer the family a memory box. LL told police her only involvement with C was when she was asked to help with the resuscitation attempt. She added she had a "vague recollection" of taking C's hand and foot prints for a memory box while the infant was sat with his parents but "couldn't be certain".


4 Aug – baby E - LL’s nursing note: 'both parents present during resus. Fully updated by nursing and medical team throughout. Parents wished for E to be baptised, Chaplain attended and carried out baptism and supported parents. Mum and dad held E’s hand as he passed away.” “'E was bathed by myself and photographs taken as requested, both were present during this. Consent obtained for [hair] and hand/footprints. Both distraught.”

Baby E's mum testifies that "Lucy Letby gave us a memory box, which totally surprised me. It had footprints, a lock of his hair, a candle, a teddy.

This may sound weird but originally when I heard about how she bathed the baby who had died, I wondered if she got some kind of pleasure out of touching the dead body. I can't remember the exact testimony that led me to think this but I think she offered to bath the baby because the mother couldn't do it.

I would imagine taking hand and foot prints would also occur after the babies had died and would necessitate touching them? Just a theory and my own opinion. I don't work in nursing so this kind of thing may be normal in that profession.

 

[Tortoise]

This may sound weird but originally when I heard about how she bathed the baby who had died, I wondered if she got some kind of pleasure out of touching the dead body. I can't remember the exact testimony that led me to think this but I think she offered to bath the baby because the mother couldn't do it.

I would imagine taking hand and foot prints would also occur after the babies had died and would necessitate touching them? Just a theory and my own opinion. I don't work in nursing so this kind of thing may be normal in that profession.

It seems she didn't mind holding the deceased babies at all and she wasn't as upset as some of the other staff.


Dr Harkness - “At the time this was one of my first neo-natal deaths I had to deal with as a registrar. I was in tears. I required time off work.”

Dead baby had ‘extraordinary’ discoloured patches on skin, Lucy Letby trial told

Quotes from media thread -

The father said Child A was brought to them by Lucy Letby, prior to the child's transfer to Alder Hey for a post-mortem examination.

[The shift-leader] recalled Sophie Ellis "becoming emotionally upset" and the nurse said she advised her to step outside.

"Melanie Taylor, a Band 6 nurse, told the court [...] I can tell you now that Lucy was there. I approached the incubator and she was standing on the opposite side. She was the one that suggested putting in an airway'. [...] I gave this statement a few years ago, but I remember how cool and calm she was at the time. I can tell you that Lucy was there'. "

[Sophie Ellis] adds the parents were then informed. She said she became upset herself as this was "the first time" something like this had happened in her experience, and she found it "overwhelming". Lucy Letby said to her: "Do you want me to take over?" to which she said: "Yes."

--

LL dressed baby E in a white gown after his bath and took photos. The father of C said LL asked them to put him in a ventilated basket while they held him during his final hours. C's mum said LL told her she thought he was going to die before any doctor had indicated that, which seems quite eager, and not difficult for her to contemplate informing a parent.

Nurses have to deal with death but it does seem by her actions as if LL wasn't phased by it at all - except she says she was upset and crying in her texts.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

OMG
Baby N who was screaming in agony for 30!!! minutes was (allegedly) attacked 3 times
And 2 times on the same day???

"Count 17 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 3, 2016

Count 18 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

Count 19 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016"

Lucy Letby colleague couldn't remember her 'comforting baby's family'

Dr David Harkness, a registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital, told the trial this afternoon of the 'extraordinary' discoloured patches on the baby's skin which he'd never seen before.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

OMG
Baby N who was screaming in agony for 30!!! minutes was (allegedly) attacked 3 times
And 2 times on the same day???

"Count 17 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 3, 2016

Count 18 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016

Count 19 - Charged with attempted murder of Baby N on June 15, 2016"

Lucy Letby colleague couldn't remember her 'comforting baby's family'

Dr David Harkness, a registrar at the Countess of Chester Hospital, told the trial this afternoon of the 'extraordinary' discoloured patches on the baby's skin which he'd never seen before.

www.dailymail.co.uk

and thinking of Baby N is so frustrating, considering it didnt happen until June 2016, ----a full year after earlier babies were murdered in the same horrid manner. Weren't others very very suspicious by then?

 

[Tortoise]

IMO there are very strong patterns of evidence in this case.

Not just the fact that LL was on duty for all of the events.

The times at which many of the babies collapsed being around midnight/1am, when parents wouldn't be visiting, and for the non-designated babies, most significantly when their designated nurses had just gone on their break or popped out of the room.

The complete unexpectedness of the collapses, often with improvements between collapses.

The sudden swelling and bleeding from the throat and mouth.

The emergence of a new moving rash on the skin that appeared and disappeared and experienced doctors and nurses had never seen before.

8 of the babies, that's 3 sets of twins and two from one set of triplets, collapsing on successive nights or the same day, but none with genetic abnormalities or conditions.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

and thinking of Baby N is so frustrating, considering it didnt happen until June 2016, ----a full year after earlier babies were murdered in the same horrid manner. Weren't others very very suspicious by then?

I understand this Baby survived these (alleged) maniacal attempts.
I really hope the child is not brain damaged as poor Baby G.

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

and thinking of Baby N is so frustrating, considering it didnt happen until June 2016, ----a full year after earlier babies were murdered in the same horrid manner. Weren't others very very suspicious by then?

I can only think that there was a lot of puzzlement going on with doctors noticing very strange things happening but post-mortems coming back with natural causes, and other babies recovering. As the prosecutor says even with liver injury, the coroner would never have contemplated a baby in the neonatal unit would be assaulted and determined it could be impact trauma from CPR. I just can't picture this CPR on a little baby, one of the nurses described using just her thumbs to massage the baby's heart.

The insulin cases though just seem like they should have been investigated further, but with babies who had improved they said they couldn't repeat the tests.

 

[Tortoise]

I understand this Baby survived these (alleged) maniacal attempts.
I really hope the child is not brain damaged as poor Baby G.

Moo

Baby M was also left with brain damage.

 

[Dotta]

Re a Juror with Covid

It might mean the trial will stop till after Christmas, no?

Or can the Juror be replaced by an alternative/substitute one?

Moo

 

[squish]

Re a Juror with Covid

It might mean the trial will stop till after Christmas, no?

Or can the Juror be replaced by an alternative/substitute one?

Moo

A journalist said they were hoping to return this Friday - but I'm worried too that in the run up to Christmas and with the World Cup on, we will get lots more "illnesses" and positive covid tests. In the end it might not be worth bothering and the trial will resume in the new year.

The trial was estimated to take 6 months, but I think it will take 7 or 8.

 

[Dotta]

A journalist said they were hoping to return this Friday - but I'm worried too that in the run up to Christmas and with the World Cup on, we will get lots more "illnesses" and positive covid tests. In the end it might not be worth bothering and the trial will resume in the new year.

The trial was estimated to take 6 months, but I think it will take 7 or 8.

How I love this wicked British humour haha

 

[TraderJones]

I think it was Tortoise who said before that, if guilty LL seems to have targeted those babies whose deaths would have the biggest impact.

IF guilty, it feels almost like she's writing the script for a soap opera, aiming for the biggest drama, the saddest scenario.

So, if guilty....
She hears that a couple have been trying for years for a baby- so she decides to try to kill that baby.
She hears that after losing one twin, the father is terrified that they're going to lose the other twin too- so she decides to try to kill that baby.
She hears that a baby is about to celebrate being 100 days old, sees the banners and the cake - so she tries to kill that baby.... on that day.

Only this isn't a soap opera. This is real life, with real people with real emotions.

IMO

I've been thinking this for a while as a possible motive but it's the first time I have seen it posted, so thanks for sharing.

- We know she was interested in the show 'One Born every Minute' and 'how we are portrayed'
- We know she was the face of a hospital fundraising campaign, so had received a small amount of public recognition
- She was presumably well aware of colleague Dr Jayaram's growing TV personality

If guilty, is it possible she was hoping that creating these dramatic tragic incidents would attract a documentary to her NN unit, where *she* could be the star?

 

[MissMarbles]

I've been thinking this for a while as a possible motive but it's the first time I have seen it posted, so thanks for sharing.

- We know she was interested in the show 'One Born every Minute' and 'how we are portrayed'
- We know she was the face of a hospital fundraising campaign, so had received a small amount of public recognition
- She was presumably well aware of colleague Dr Jayaram's growing TV personality

If guilty, is it possible she was hoping that creating these dramatic tragic incidents would attract a documentary to her NN unit, where *she* could be the star?

If LL is found guilty of these alleged crimes my guess is I don't think we will ever know the motivations for those actions, if she is guilty. And if there were reasons given they might not make any sense to most people. The alleged crimes seem so shocking and strange.

I'm prepared for disappointment and not knowing why, in the event of such a verdict. Life's just like that sometimes - alleged killers don't necessarily provide insight into all the "whys and wheres" afterwards, and I don't think we would truly understand LL's alleged actions and her alleged explanations to the police, whichever way the verdict goes.

This is just my opinion of course.

 

[Dotta]

If LL is found guilty of these alleged crimes my guess is I don't think we will ever know the motivations for those actions, if she is guilty. And if there were reasons given they might not make any sense to most people. The alleged crimes seem so shocking and strange.

I'm prepared for disappointment and not knowing why, in the event of such a verdict. Life's just like that sometimes - alleged killers don't necessarily provide insight into all the "whys and wheres" afterwards, and I don't think we would truly understand LL's alleged actions and her alleged explanations to the police, whichever way the verdict goes.

This is just my opinion of course.

If guilty,
I don't think she even understands.
Moo

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

If LL is found guilty of these alleged crimes my guess is I don't think we will ever know the motivations for those actions, if she is guilty. And if there were reasons given they might not make any sense to most people. The alleged crimes seem so shocking and strange.

I'm prepared for disappointment and not knowing why, in the event of such a verdict. Life's just like that sometimes - alleged killers don't necessarily provide insight into all the "whys and wheres" afterwards, and I don't think we would truly understand LL's alleged actions and her alleged explanations to the police, whichever way the verdict goes.

This is just my opinion of course.

Agree, even if found guilty I don't think she's going to say "okay you got it right, I did do it and here's why". If found guilty she will continue to deny this forever IMO. Plus motives usually only make sense to the person motivated by them, if she even has one that could be rationalised and verbalised it's probably not going to be a neat conclusion. She may not even know herself why if she has done any of this.


MOO

 

[katydid23]

Lucy Letby trial adjourned on December 7 due to juror illness

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, has…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The case is now in its ninth week before the jury, and today (Wednesday, December 7) was due to hear further evidence in the case of Child G, a baby girl born weighing 1lb 2oz at Wirral's Arrowe Park Hospital in May 2015, before later being transferred to the Countess of Chester Hospital.

Letby, 32, allegedly tried to murder the youngster hours after she helped put up a party banner at the Countess of Chester Hospital's neonatal unit to celebrate the girl turning 100 days old.


The defendant is accused of overfeeding the baby with milk through a nasogastric tube (NGT) and/or injecting air into the tube.

Prosecutors say she struck after 2am on September 7, 2015 while a colleague designated to look after the infant, referred to as Child G, was on an hour-long break.

Prosecutors say the defendant made two more attempts to murder Child G on September 21.

In his opening statement to the jury, Ben Myers KC, defending, said Letby did not do anything to contribute to the health problems of Child G, who he said was “extremely premature” and “high risk”.

 

[katydid23]

Since we have only been hearing from the prosecution so far, here is a recap of the defense's Opening Arguments:

Lucy Letby trial: 'Sub-optimal care at Countess hospital' a factor in baby collapses, defence say

'SUB-OPTIMAL' care at the Countess of Chester Hospital's neonatal unit was a factor which led to many of the baby collapses, the defence barrister…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

SUB-OPTIMAL' care at the Countess of Chester Hospital's neonatal unit was a factor which led to many of the baby collapses, the defence barrister of alleged killer nurse Lucy Letby has said.

Ben Myers KC, giving the defence outline case at Manchester Crown Court on Thursday, October 13, told the jury there were problems with the way the neonatal unit was run at that time.




He suggested it was overstretched and understaffed,....

Mr Myers addressed the issue of Letby being present at all the apparent collapses and deaths.

He said: “We say there are many occasions when Lucy Letby was simply not there when she had to be present if she was doing the deliberate harm alleged.


“She was a young woman with no immediate family commitments and someone who built her life around her work in a neonatal unit.

“Someone in that position is more than likely to be looking after the more clinically challenged babies and more likely to be there when deterioration happened, but it doesn’t mean she made it happen.”


https://www.chateau-quintus.com/?ut...ium=cpm&utm_campaign=unfoldUS&ord=[timestamp]

 

[katydid23]

This portion of the defense opening is particularly interesting:

Mr Myers said the evidence outlined by the prosecution was disputed, in particular allegations of air being injected into babies.

Each case was disputed by the defence, with Mr Myers saying "sub-optimal care" was a factor in the cases of
Child A; Child C, who should have been taken to a specialist hospital;
Child D, who should have been given antibiotics hours before she was treated;
Child H; Child J, where the Countess of Chester Hospital was "well out of its depth" in knowing how to treat her;
Child K, who Mr Myers said 'should not have been in the Countess of Chester Hospital in the first place'; and Child N.



Also:

He said the defendant is “adamant” she did nothing to harm children.

“Anyone who approaches this as some kind of a done deal has got this very badly wrong,” Mr Myers said.

“She loved her job. She cared deeply about the babies and also cared for their families.”

 

[Kemug]

Mmm.

 

[squish]

Agree, even if found guilty I don't think she's going to say "okay you got it right, I did do it and here's why". If found guilty she will continue to deny this forever IMO. Plus motives usually only make sense to the person motivated by them, if she even has one that could be rationalised and verbalised it's probably not going to be a neat conclusion. She may not even know herself why if she has done any of this.


MOO

If found guilty, she will have no choice but to deny it for her own safety, because baby and child killers are at risk of being hated in prison. Assuming guilt and failed appeal attempts, I think she will continue to deny it in the hope of convincing fellow cons. The more supporters and friends she has inside, the easier her life will be.

She doesn't strike me as particularly vulnerable, she seems able to speak up for herself - such as when she chastised the nurse who called for help when one of Lucy's babies started tanking. She was also confident enough to insert herself where she was not wanted around grieving parents. She seems able to speak her mind in the text message conversations. She was socially competent enough to be convincing for a long time as a caring NICU nurse, with her colleagues and the babies' families. It's clear from social media pictures that she's tall, making her less physically vulnerable. I don't think she's someone who would ordinarily struggle with bullying. She has hope that she can avoid attacks in prison. This hope would end if she ever admitted that actually, she did torture and kill tiny babies.

IMO, if found guilty, etc etc.