GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[iamshadow21]

I wonder what she is doing today?

Counting the bricks in the walls of her cell.

MOO

 

[LadyL]

Convicted murderers should be compelled to listen to the impact statements of their victims‘ families. Those statements from the babies’ families are so raw and painful and powerful.

There is also some difference in the way US courts have handled requiring convicted criminals to be present for victim impact statements and sentencing. Jeffrey Willis, convicted in the state of Michigan of the murders of Jessica Heeringa and Rebekah Bletsch, refused to attend his sentencing as was his legal right. To make sure he listened to the family statements, his transport to prison included hours of the recorded statements and sentencing played during his ride into his prison incarceration.

This is what LL should be subject to.

for real?
wow good for them!

 

[DianaWW]

We have no idea what would have happened if they had blown the whistle after Baby D, as they ought to have done.

I bet they torture themselves with that thought every single day. I watched the interviews with them and they are broken. They had a hunch at the time, but very little to back it up. They needed backing from management and the board if they had a chance of being taken seriously. The management are the ones that refused to investigate properly, refused to escalate their concerns, and misled the board to try and brush everything under the carpet. If we have to blame anyone, other than the actual murderer, let's start with them. JMO.

 

[notsure]

Exactly!
I see that Consultants are still being bashed here by some who fiercely defended LL even when evidence was shown in the trial.
Not to metion experts being vilified.

If you mean posters who tried to remain impartial and not leap to assumptions without all the evidence... Assuming innocence is what the British law system is all about, after all. And bear in mind that even the jury did not reach unanimous decisions on all the charges, and even found her not guilty of some, and failed to reach verdicts on others.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I bet they torture themselves with that thought every single day. I watched the interviews with them and they are broken. They had a hunch at the time, but very little to back it up. They needed backing from management and the board if they had a chance of being taken seriously. The management are the ones that refused to investigate properly, refused to escalate their concerns, and misled the board to try and brush everything under the carpet. If we have to blame anyone, other than the actual murderer, let's start with them. JMO.

I am not taking away any blame from Letby, or the management (who should be prosecuted). But the consultants are not heroes.

 

[notsure]

I wonder what she is doing today?

Probably relishing the fact that we can't stop talking about her

 

[Sweeper2000]

Counting the bricks in the walls of her cell.

MOO

Well she can be as studious as she wants to be there in her study of bricks. She has plenty of time for it. I’m sure she will know each and everyone before long, hell I think she will probably name them and talk to them before long. Two favourites “tigger and smudge”.

 

[iamshadow21]

I bet they torture themselves with that thought every single day. I watched the interviews with them and they are broken. They had a hunch at the time, but very little to back it up. They needed backing from management and the board if they had a chance of being taken seriously. The management are the ones that refused to investigate properly, refused to escalate their concerns, and misled the board to try and brush everything under the carpet. If we have to blame anyone, other than the actual murderer, let's start with them. JMO.

When a system kills who it's meant to safeguard, it's incredibly depressing. Like Gabriel Fernandez, where you have his poor teacher making call after call reporting his horrendous injuries in his final months, when you have a random security guard at a welfare office who saw Gabriel's injuries risking his job to report when he was told not to, and the social workers who could have saved his life just closed out and round filed everything. I still think they should have gone to trial. Charging them alongside Gabriel's killers was the right call. And charging these management people who were six days away from putting Letby back on the ward with vulnerable babies may be the right call, here. Because of their obsession with the image of the hospital and placating Letby, babies died, and at least three babies were left with permanent injuries. Baby G, who is blind and profoundly physically disabled, Baby F, who has severe learning disabilities and is nonspeaking, and Baby N, who struggles to play, eat and brush his teeth without gagging.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Probably relishing the fact that we can't stop talking about her

I don’t think she’s the kind of person to be indifferent to others opinions on her. If being accused of the crimes was the worst thing for her it’s not the fact she did it that bothers her it’s because she was caught.

 

[Konstantin]

Probably relishing the fact that we can't stop talking about her

I wonder about this.

My feeling, which is MOO of course, is that LL will not like at all the idea that people see her real self, the LL who murdered tiny preemie babies. I think part of what LL got off on was her ability to create the drama and then manipulate others around her into thinking she not only was innocent but that she was nice, competent Lucy, the one you would trust with your own children. The nurse who was better than the other nurses.

I think that--and not for a sexual affair, I mean an affair that happened because of some sexual attraction--was what she got out of her relationship with Dr No Name. It was attention, attention of a particular sort.

Attention she needed for her narcissistic/psychopathic supply. Dopamine rushes.

It's the sort of attention, dramatic attention, she has been getting off her parents all her life, isn't it?

Look at how her parents reacted to her. Daddy came into the hospital and threw his weight around when little Lucykins was in trouble. What conversations do you think she had with Mummy and Daddy about that? Emotional, victim laden sobbing conversations. She bugged doctors in her texts--first the female doctor and then No Name for similar supply. She wanted it off the parents. Lucy doesn't really know who she is, I think, outside of that attention. She talked about herself in the third person sometimes in her texts, when she talked about what persona she was today. Serious Lucy.

All this talk about her normal childhood, well how do you know it was normal? It's not normal for Dad to come into a work disciplinary meeting for his adult professional daughter. Even Lucy says they smothered her and kicked up a fuss about her "moving away" yet she still sought and thrived on the attention.

Now the mask has slipped and she is getting attention, yes but it is not the sort she wants. People think she is a monster. She couldn't face HERSELF in the court yesterday, not the parents. Herself and her extensions and enablers, Mummy and Daddy.

And her friend is probably in denial about her because otherwise she will have to admit to a waiting audience of the whole of the UK that she made a massive mistake about her friend Lucy, she didn't spot Lucy is a psychopathic serial baby killer type. Maybe Dawn feels guilty, could she have seen something, caused something to be done? Easier to say no I think she must be innocent. It's her mind protecting her against the horrific truth. MOO of course.

Letby will never admit she is guilty, because now her victim look-at-me image revolves around her being a victim and a scapegoat, she can get oodles of dopamine rushes off having supporters write to her, Mum visiting her, etc.

 

[LadyL]

Nothing stopped them. I cannot get behind these consultants being put on a pedestal. If SEVEN of them had suspicions why on earth were they not down the police station immediately. “We’ve tried, but management..” doesn’t cut it when you’re dealing with babies being killed.

I mean, if there's anything worth losing your job over, surely it's the murder of babies?!

 

[Dotta]

Being locked in a small room in solitary, without hope and for the rest of life is like being buried alive IMO.

But then, as a saying goes:

"We are all blacksmiths of our Fate"

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’ll bite here. I played devils advocate during this trial because the idea that a nurse was able to kill children for (at least) an entire year, in plain sight, while the people around her were so suspicious of her but chose not to record those suspicions or even the issues which caused the suspicions (eg Baby K’s collapse, the fleeting rashes etc) was so completely incredibly unbelievable to me that I struggled to accept it was in any way possible or probable.

What now transpires is that not only DID that actually happen, but it is so much worse than previously imagined.

Even if I were to accept that the consultants could not gather enough evidence to go to the police prior to June 2016, they still chose not to do it even when Ian Harvey decided to call the royal college in instead of the police. They still chose not to whistleblow.

It’s the bystander effect, with tragic consequences.

im exactly the same. The information as it was presented gave us absolutely no idea as to what was going on. I can’t believe it was a broadly thought thing. Other nurses did used to call her “the angel of death” etc. Yeh though I as well found it difficult to believe at the time and that’s why I didn’t believe it. The turNing point for me was when Baby E really sunk in Which was late in the evidence. Was probably the strongest of cases imo. Also i Was waiting wrongly for the defence to really make a strong defence which imo didn’t happen. In the whole thing I think he scored some minor concessions from the prosecution which might be a few pebbles off a mountain. I said it before and I’ll say it again, I don’t know why he took the case.

 

[Sundial]

This is horrendous. Baby Ds mother asked for her baby’s medical notes after her baby died and wanted to call the police.. her report is so sad (as are the others) but this is worth a read, managements point of view in baby Ds case in the article..

Lucy Letby: Mother of murdered baby still hasn’t declared child’s death - 'We wanted justice'

The mother of 'Child D' said only now can she receive an official cause of death for her child, murdered by the killer nurse.

www.aol.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

This is horrendous. Baby Ds mother asked for her baby’s medical notes after her baby died and wanted to call the police.. her report is so sad (as are the others) but this is worth a read, managements point of view in baby Ds case in the article..

Lucy Letby: Mother of murdered baby still hasn’t declared child’s death - 'We wanted justice'

The mother of 'Child D' said only now can she receive an official cause of death for her child, murdered by the killer nurse.

www.aol.co.uk

Her conviction that something was badly wrong at COCH and her actions to sleuth it herself left me in awe. I had no idea until her statement that any of the parents had tried to investigate their child's death or attempted murder themselves. Unbeknownst to her, she and the police were investigating in parallel. It must have been excruciating for them that they couldn't tell her until the point of arrest that they were there, that they were going to take that burden from her and take it all the way to criminal court.

MOO

 

[Davieson]

Being locked in a small room in solitary, without hope and for the rest of life is like being buried alive IMO.

But then, as a saying goes:

"We are all blacksmiths of our Fate"

I don't think she will be in solitary confinement for the rest of her life.
Nor should she be, just securely locked away from society.
IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I can remember baby E so well. One I think fair point is that it wasn’t likely that she would attack the baby just before her mum came down for her expected feeding time, it’s a fair point IMO. However the mums description of how ll reacted wasn’t what anyone of us could expect again a fair point. Seemed verbally to be an off the cuff response ie “nothing to see here, don’t worry“ that’s one cool customer to be so unfazed in that situation. Very cool calm and measured response so calm. The only odd thing was ll telling mum to go back upstairs. Oh dear it’s horrendous to think that we can now place that almost inhumanly cool response to Lucy letby herself in the context of her being a serial killer. That’s a certain level of gut wrenching realisation.

 

[DianaWW]

When a system kills who it's meant to safeguard, it's incredibly depressing. Like Gabriel Fernandez, where you have his poor teacher making call after call reporting his horrendous injuries in his final months, when you have a random security guard at a welfare office who saw Gabriel's injuries risking his job to report when he was told not to, and the social workers who could have saved his life just closed out and round filed everything. I still think they should have gone to trial. Charging them alongside Gabriel's killers was the right call. And charging these management people who were six days away from putting Letby back on the ward with vulnerable babies may be the right call, here. Because of their obsession with the image of the hospital and placating Letby, babies died, and at least three babies were left with permanent injuries. Baby G, who is blind and profoundly physically disabled, Baby F, who has severe learning disabilities and is nonspeaking, and Baby N, who struggles to play, eat and brush his teeth without gagging.

MOO

I totally agree that management should face charges. I just can't blame the consultants. If not for them, she would have been back on the ward and there'd have been more victims. I'm not saying they're heroes, and I'm sure they wished they acted sooner. But I just can't find it in me, to put any blame on them.

 

[Moll]

I bet they torture themselves with that thought every single day. I watched the interviews with them and they are broken. They had a hunch at the time, but very little to back it up. They needed backing from management and the board if they had a chance of being taken seriously. The management are the ones that refused to investigate properly, refused to escalate their concerns, and misled the board to try and brush everything under the carpet. If we have to blame anyone, other than the actual murderer, let's start with them. JMO.

I agree.
These links with interviews with Dr Ravi Jayaram were probably posted on the last thread but I'll post them again:
https://www.itv.com/watch/news/babi...lped-catch-lucy-letby-blames-hospital/xcytcvm
https://www.itv.com/news/2023-08-21/doctor-who-helped-catch-lucy-letby-calls-for-full-public-inquiry

Now that the trial's over, people come here to revive old issues that were picked over at length during it 'Why didn't they go to the police immediately?' and even the allegation that LL was let down by her defence. 'I don't know why he took the case'. Unbelievable.

So many people on here have been knowledgeable and helpful, though - thanks to them, special thanks to Tortoise as always, and to marynnu for insights into neonatal nursing.

 

[JosieJo]

Having worked 34 years in NHS those consultants are heroes.

A) they were carrying out post death debriefs and reviews ...that enabled these deaths to be picked up quickly

B) they escalated concerns correctly

C) the most important thing they fought to get her removed while it was looked at

They didn't know everything we know now..the insulin..the Facebook ..the paperwork at home ...the falsifying records...the messages to staff etc

I'm sure if they had known about the insulin they would have gone to police..but they were doing the right thing.

I'd suggest concentrating on how many lives they may have saved by getting her removed while the exec team dragged their feet.

Dr Breary was broken and crying on TV

Look at the consultant involved in the Allit case ...years later distraught and crying feeling guilty.

I think it needs remembering that a lot of the time where the police should have been involved she was off the unit thanks to the consultants

I find even the tiniest criticism of these consultants very uncomfortable