UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

[CS2C]

I wanna know more about this outburst of “I’m innocent”
Did she shout it, was it aimed at the judge, how did baby k’s parents react to it…. I hope someone was at court today to tell us! @CS2C Could you find out?

I read she was tearful and shouted it out, but then I saw one person say she just verbalised it.

 

[Anxala]

I really appreciated the stares from the judge, especially at the end. Excellent.

Now. Why do we think her parents didn't attend?

Maybe because they've been through enough already and have nothing left in their hope bank? Neither one of them looked particularly healthy after the original trial and the description of their lives prior to the trial was absolutely heartbreaking, not answering the door, huddled inside, their 'normal' essentially over, gone forever, never to return. As much victims of LL as all the babies and the parents of the babies are.

My heart hurts for them. Can we not leave them alone?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Maybe because they've been through enough? Neither one of them looked particularly healthy after the original trial and the description of their lives prior to the trial was heartbreaking, not answering the door, huddled inside, their 'normal' essentially over, never to return. As much victims of LL as all the parents of the babies are.

Can we not leave them alone?

I agree.

They must be absolutely and utterly heartbroken.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yip that's definitely well said an well put. I can see it definitely.

I'm very much caught up on the fact that it is as unthinkable to me that someone who had murdered babies and didn't want to get caught would keep those handover notes though in those circumstances. You not see that potential in her actions? Gets back from ibiza and immediately goes on one? But doesn't want to get caught?

Maybe getting caught or not caught was part of the thrill?

To us it seems straight forward. Get rid of them, but to her they weren’t “just” handover sheets or scraps of paper. They meant something. They were valuable. They were the only reminders she had left of the babies she’d killed. To her it would be like destroying precious photos or one of a kind irreplaceable “memorabilia”. She’d only do it if it was absolutely necessary , eg if it was certain that police were going to search her home without warning and find them and if she felt that she wouldn’t be able to offer an innocent explanation for them. Why risk getting rid of something so precious to her if there was a chance she’d be able to talk her way out of it all and carry on her old life.

Although I’ve wondered before whether she did keep and then dispose of any other souvenirs that would have been harder to explain away. She was preparing memory boxes and had access to a Polaroid instant camera so had the opportunity to keep other souvenirs if she’d wanted to. Also wonder why there were some of the early babies in the charges who she didn’t have any handover sheets for at all, yet she had handover sheets going back years before then .

 

[ChatteringBirds]

There was a reason for her insanity.
People are not born murderers

RSBM. I don't know if people are born murderers, but what about born psychopaths? I believe someone like her who can't feel empathy, remorse, love can be born that way.

She was genuinely and sincerely liked by everyone, as far as I can tell.

She wasn't liked by some of the parents, though. (For example, the mother whom she told to place her baby in a cot before he had even passed away.)

 

[iamshadow21]

To us it seems straight forward. Get rid of them, but to her they weren’t “just” handover sheets or scraps of paper. They meant something. They were valuable. They were the only reminders she had left of the babies she’d killed. To her it would be like destroying precious photos or one of a kind irreplaceable “memorabilia”. She’d only do it if it was absolutely necessary , eg if it was certain that police were going to search her home without warning and find them and if she felt that she wouldn’t be able to offer an innocent explanation for them. Why risk getting rid of something so precious to her if there was a chance she’d be able to talk her way out of it all and carry on her old life.

Although I’ve wondered before whether she did keep and then dispose of any other souvenirs that would have been harder to explain away. She was preparing memory boxes and had access to a Polaroid instant camera so had the opportunity to keep other souvenirs if she’d wanted to. Also wonder why there were some of the early babies in the charges who she didn’t have any handover sheets for at all, yet she had handover sheets going back years before then .

I suspect there were times she was in close contact with colleagues and couldn't manage to take a handover sheet home without risk. But it's also possible she had moments of fear and decided not to risk taking one, or destroyed one. We really don't know. It's also possible there was a cache of papers somewhere that the police didn't find.

I think it's very telling that the earliest handover sheet they found was from her first day as a trainee nurse and was preserved in a keepsake box with gold and rose decoration.

That tells us this obsession was there from the very beginning.

And yes, it may have begun as small cruelties - pinching their skin, pinching their nose shut, pushing a feed in too quickly - but that wasn't enough. That was never going to be enough, once she got the taste for it.

But whenever the actual abuses began of the children in her care, we know the handover sheets was a thing from the start.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

RSBM. I don't know if people are born murderers, but what about born psychopaths? I believe someone like her who can't feel empathy, remorse, love can be born that way.



She wasn't liked by some of the parents, though. (For example, the mother whom she told to place her baby in a cot before he had even passed away.)

There are genuinely people born with low empathy in this world, who struggle to understand the emotions and feelings of others. Just down to genetics, not trauma.

But they still have choices.

There are people who walk through the world with a purely intellectual understanding of other people and living things as having an existence and experience outside of their own. Millions of them. And yet they have careers in business, medicine, law, sports, entertainment, and arts. They become innovators and teachers. And every day, they wake up and make the choice to do their best to do no harm, because as much as they don't understand other people, they don't want to harm them.

Letby woke up every day before a shift and chose violence. She chose pain. She chose harm. And that's on her.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm certain this wasn't the first time she'd done something like that. I think those two years were her "peak violence years". Lots of Interesting theories here, plenty of talk as well which is good.

 

[ColourPurple]

I still really feel killing or hurting was not her prime motivation...i think killing them served a purpose.I feel she used those little babies as a tool to get what she wants ...attention, admiration or to take it out on people she had a grudge with.

I agree that she used them as a tool to meet her own needs but I think she was a sadist who enjoyed the killing too. She chose horrifically painful ways to attack the majority of the babies. I think she enjoyed the physical pain she inflicted upon on the babies and the emotional pain she inflicted on their families and to a lesser extent the staff who looked after them. And of course she enjoyed the opportunity it gave her to be part of the grieving process. All the time knowing that she has caused it all and that only she knew that.

In court she was asked about the atmosphere on the unit when a baby dies . The last line of her reply is interesting , trivially hearing in mind the Baby K case. She said “"It's devastating. You want to save every baby in your care. You're not supposed to watch a baby die”.

 

[ColourPurple]

….But whenever the actual abuses began of the children in her care, we know the handover sheets was a thing from the start.

MOO

That’s the thing though there were no handover sheets found for babies A,C or D. So for 3 of the first 4 attacks (that we know of) she didn’t keep a handover sheet.

 

[iamshadow21]

That’s the thing though there were no handover sheets found for babies A,C or D. So for 3 of the first 4 attacks (that we know of) she didn’t keep a handover sheet.

There are likely a bunch of reasons she could have not had a sheet. But unless she tells us why, we won't ever know.

Not taken for some reason, destroyed for some reason, or unfound by police are the most likely reasons, IMO.

 

[ColourPurple]

I've never been able to work her out, quite frankly. She is just so incredibly different to any murder/serial killer I've ever read about. She's been compared to Allitt but those comparisons are lazy and completely wrong. They are nothing alike.

She was genuinely and sincerely liked by everyone, as far as I can tell. She was outgoing, sociable and I get the impression that people wanted to be around her. That's not something you can say about almost any other serial killer, as far as I can think of.

She described herself ( and Dr V) as one of the faces who didn’t fit, and there was also her comments about some other nurses saying “less than kind” things about her. There was also hints in court of some kind of fall out between her and one of the other nurses so I don’t think she was universally liked but obviously we only got to see the texts she changed with people she did get on with. Would’ve loved to have seen the texts between the other nurses that she didn’t get on with.

 

[ColourPurple]

What a lot of people don't realise (and, to make it very clear here that this is not a personal dig a Mr Johnson, but I'm sure he'll know what I'm getting at) is that many lawyers who rise to the upper echelons of their profession are border-line psychopaths/sociopaths themselves, as are many high flying business people for that metter. Coupled with being highly intelligent, that is not an easy personality to talk into a corner.

I’m laughing but I know what you mean. It was almost like a chess game between Johnson and Letby.

 

[Honeybirdette]

She described herself ( and Dr V) as one of the faces who didn’t fit, and there was also her comments about some other nurses saying “less than kind” things about her. There was also hints in court of some kind of fall out between her and one of the other nurses so I don’t think she was universally liked but obviously we only got to see the texts she changed with people she did get on with. Would’ve loved to have seen the texts between the other nurses that she didn’t get on with.

Yes I’d love to speak to ashleigh Hudson, Mel Taylor and Sophie Ellis.
I never understood why she had it in for baby I so much and tried to kill her so many times.
Then I read somewhere Ashleigh was baby I’s designated nurse For the last two attempts or something. Then it made sense. She wanted baby I to die to either a) get Ashleigh in trouble, or b) to make her upset/knock her confidence.
I remember Ashleigh was quite new at the time and she became really upset when Baby I had suddenly and randomly collapsed under her care. She was in tears and lucy had asked her “should I take over”
Almost like a “your way out your depth here, I’ll sort it”
Just chilling, for imo explains some of her motives.
I would love to know what they all think

 

[ColourPurple]

I read she was tearful and shouted it out, but then I saw one person say she just verbalised it.

I really wish somebody had shouted back at her to eff off!

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes I’d love to speak to ashleigh Hudson, Mel Taylor and Sophie Ellis.
I never understood why she had it in for baby I so much and tried to kill her so many times.
Then I read somewhere Ashleigh was baby I’s designated nurse For the last two attempts or something. Then it made sense. She wanted baby I to die to either a) get Ashleigh in trouble, or b) to make her upset.
I remember Ashleigh was quite new at the time and she became really upset when Baby I had suddenly and randomly collapsed when she was the designated nurse for her. She was in tears and lucy had asked her “should I take over”
Almost like a “your way out your depth here, I’ll take over”
Just chilling.
I would love to know what they all think

“I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”

Although I think Baby C was the clearest example of this, there was also that time where LL texted the shift leader saying she’d like to “ keep” Baby I on her next shift, and after initially agreeing , the shift leader says she had reallocated her to somebody else because they didn’t want the same person having her two shifts in a row . I can’t remember if it was Ashleigh who was chosen instead of LL. But then I think she knew she would hurt everybody on the unit by killing Baby I as she’d spent a lot of time on the unit and the staff would’ve had more time to bond with her .

 

[ColourPurple]

https://x.com/JudithMoritz

Jesus. That drawing is giving real Vicky Pollard vibes!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Jesus. That drawing is giving real Vicky Pollard vibes!

Westlife are S**t; if you know, you know!

On a serious note; I've never been impressed with the court sketches from the outset of this. None of them really chie with any pics we've ever seen f LL.

 

[shesfixingherhair]

Whereas all I can see in her are the whole array of similarities to other serial killers.

She isn't a unicorn for being sociable. Gacy was far more sociable than Letby ever was. Was very active socially, politically, and in his community. Some compartmentalise well. Gacy was in many ways more like a sociable, connected paederast (which he also was) than a lot of serial killers, but that doesn't mean he wasn't an example of what a serial killer can be.

I think Letby was middling on compartmentalisation. Her whole life revolved around what she did at work. Her house seemed... Soulless, somehow. Like all she did was sleep there, on her dragon hoard of handover sheets. We never really learned anything about real dreams, hobbies, or relationships outside CoC.

She wasn't like one of those killers who have no ability to blend, who drift and kill and end up in trouble on the regular, no. But she wasn't one who had a rich and vibrant life and a growing family and active social life (that wasn't just going out with the girls from work for drinks occasionally) either.

She had friends at work, but she seemed to use them for emotional validation and information on the babies, and would get frosty if they wouldn't respond as she wanted them to. She also had a number of people at work who didn't get on with her, who thought she was a 'madam' and bossy and had an attitude of superiority. I don't know if many of those work colleagues wanted to speak firmly on her behalf at trial... but I think it's telling that no one did.

MOO

As far as I’m concerned, the biggest way she is different is the contortions people go through to rationalize how she must be special. She’s not like other serial killers, she must have purer motives, everyone else around her is equally to blame for what she did…what other perpetrator of multiple murders gets this level of benefit of the doubt? The closest I can think of is Chris Watts, who through being completely beige has also managed to convince people to manufacture excuses for his baby killing.

 

[Dotta]

"Lucy Letby's mystery doctor 'crush'
who turned on killer in dramatic scenes.

Secret admissions​

A note found at Letby's home,
which included Dr A's name,
appeared to indicate that she harboured strong feelings toward him.

The 'copious writer of notes' had written:

'My best friend.
Love, I loved you and I think you knew that.
I trusted you with everything...
I wanted you to stand by me
but you didn't'."

Lucy Letby's mystery doctor 'crush' who turned on killer in dramatic scenes

As Lucy Letby is handed another whole life order for the attempted murder of Child K, the Mirror takes a look at the killer nurse's 'crush' on a doctor friend - and the despicable lengths she went to for his attention

www.mirror.co.uk