UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #35

[Marantz4250b]

Excellent essay here. Very similar to some of the things mentioned here. Comments populated mostly by the utterly deluded, unfortunately

Is Lucy Letby innocent?

Almost certainly not

snowdon.substack.com

Even so, Letby did not just seem normal before she was arrested. Nothing uncovered since her arrest has suggested any mental illness, peculiar obsessions or bizarre behaviour. Shipman was a morphine addict. Sutcliffe had been caught with a hammer in 1969 and his best friend knew that he was fixated with prostitutes. Allitt has since been diagnosed with Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Letby had plenty of friends - some of whom maintain that she is innocent - and a loving family. She was neither shy nor an exhibitionist. Her mental health has deteriorated since she was arrested but no one is claiming that she is mad. She is the eternal normie, the ‘vanilla killer’. Among medics who kill their patients, she is - according to the criminologist David Wilson - an ‘outlier’. The prosecution did its best to find sinister meanings in her bland text messages, but none of them are inconsistent with her being a conscientious nurse who likes salsa and cocktails of an evening.

 

[callmehenry]

I reckon there's probably something in her past that hints at her being twisted. Maybe something only her parents know/have witnessed though, so very unlikely we'll ever hear about it.

I thought the same. Very unlikely (IMO) that her parents will ever let something slip because they seem to have strong faith in her innocence and wouldn’t want to cast any shadows over that. There has to be something doesn’t there

 

[Dotta]

I thought the same. Very unlikely (IMO) that her parents will ever let something slip because they seem to have strong faith in her innocence and wouldn’t want to cast any shadows over that. There has to be something doesn’t there

Well,
Narcissistic personality is formed in childhood.

"Also avoid parenting styles linked to developing a narcissistic personality,
such as neglect,
indulgence
(spoiling with privilege and possessions,
and promoting entitled attitudes),
and cold, overcontrolling authoritarian methods
which insist on perfection,
winning, and toughness from a child."

Childhood Roots of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Can you tell if a child is a budding narcissist? Warning signs that self-worth is getting dangerous.

www-psychologytoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Sweeper2000]

Excellent essay here. Very similar to some of the things mentioned here. Comments populated mostly by the utterly deluded, unfortunately

Is Lucy Letby innocent?

Almost certainly not

snowdon.substack.com

Even so, Letby did not just seem normal before she was arrested. Nothing uncovered since her arrest has suggested any mental illness, peculiar obsessions or bizarre behaviour. Shipman was a morphine addict. Sutcliffe had been caught with a hammer in 1969 and his best friend knew that he was fixated with prostitutes. Allitt has since been diagnosed with Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Letby had plenty of friends - some of whom maintain that she is innocent - and a loving family. She was neither shy nor an exhibitionist. Her mental health has deteriorated since she was arrested but no one is claiming that she is mad. She is the eternal normie, the ‘vanilla killer’. Among medics who kill their patients, she is - according to the criminologist David Wilson - an ‘outlier’. The prosecution did its best to find sinister meanings in her bland text messages, but none of them are inconsistent with her being a conscientious nurse who likes salsa and cocktails of an evening.

Suppose it's a good question to ask. Of all the evidence we have heard what was the thing that made you think she was guilty on at least one charge?

Easy for me, poor Baby E and mum. I believed everything she said after a while. Might also have been secondary but the accounts of her acting strange was damning as well imo. That aspect of her seems consistent even at trial.

 

[JosieJo]

It's strange because I've always seen her as an odd bod. Not your average young woman of her age.
Obviously the things listed do not make serial killers but I certainly think "her face didn't fit" as she said herself.

She looks a little frumpy and old fashioned.
Most of her socialising was with married women much older.
Salsa and work cocktails is not your average "young" persons social life.
Holidays to Devon with your parents ? Really?
No obvious previous relationships
Childlike flirting with a very unforgettable married Dr

 

[Marantz4250b]

Suppose it's a good question to ask. Of all the evidence we have heard what was the thing that made you think she was guilty on at least one charge?

Easy for me, poor Baby E and mum. I believed everything she said after a while. Might also have been secondary but the accounts of her acting strange was damning as well imo. That aspect of her seems consistent even at trial.

There isn't a single piece of evidence or any particular point in time which swung my decision. The entirety of the evidence only leads you to one conclusion if you're assessing it logically.

I've made no secret of the fact that I was pretty convinced they had the wrong person when I first heard about this and started reading up on her. As the trial wore on, though, it became blatantly obvious that she's 100% guilty.

To be honest, I still find it a little hard to rationalise.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It's strange because I've always seen her as an odd bod. Not your average young woman of her age.
Obviously the things listed do not make serial killers but I certainly think "her face didn't fit" as she said herself.

She looks a little frumpy and old fashioned.
Most of her socialising was with married women much older.
Salsa and work cocktails is not your average "young" persons social life.
Holidays to Devon with your parents ? Really?
No obvious previous relationships
Childlike flirting with a very unforgettable married Dr

Yes, I tend to agree with this. I can see why her socialising was mostly with older women as that was the nature of the staff at work. She wasn't from Chester so wouldn't have been around her old school mates and suchlike. She worked a lot so it's going to follow that most of the people she socialised with would have been workmates, I think.

She did socialise with people her own age, though, as there's that video which was released of them all being out and quite drunk - or at least some of them as I don't think Lucy was particularly hammered. That was her old school friends, I think.

The regular holidays with parent's is kinda weird, I'll give you that. But - she also went to Ibiza which is a very "young person" thing to do.

 

[JosieJo]

Yes, I tend to agree with this. I can see why her socialising was mostly with older women as that was the nature of the staff at work. She wasn't from Chester so wouldn't have been around her old school mates and suchlike. She worked a lot so it's going to follow that most of the people she socialised with would have been workmates, I think.

She did socialise with people her own age, though, as there's that video which was released of them all being out and quite drunk - or at least some of them as I don't think Lucy was particularly hammered. That was her old school friends, I think.

The regular holidays with parent's is kinda weird, I'll give you that. But - she also went to Ibiza which is a very "young person" thing to do.

It seems like the younger members of staff were the ones she didn't get on with rather than there not being any her age...maybe a bit of a red flag in itself.
I cant remember who she went to ibiza with ? I suppose it depends which resort she went to on the island.
Also living in the Staff accommodation there would be many junior Dr's in their mid 20s

 

[Honeybirdette]

For me, the datix form I found pretty damning. And barely anyone talks about it either! I never see it reported when it comes to the most convincing evidence.
She made the notes on her phone after receiving a phone call telling her not to come in for a night shift. If i am remembering it correctly, didn’t she have a meltdown after this call and at 11.30pm wrote a note reminding her to fill out a datix report for faulty equipment?
To me this is quite a deliberate attempt to cover her tracks. She was thinking in her head “*advertiser censored*, what have they found?? And purposefully covering for herself.

 

[iamshadow21]

It's strange because I've always seen her as an odd bod. Not your average young woman of her age.
Obviously the things listed do not make serial killers but I certainly think "her face didn't fit" as she said herself.

She looks a little frumpy and old fashioned.
Most of her socialising was with married women much older.
Salsa and work cocktails is not your average "young" persons social life.
Holidays to Devon with your parents ? Really?
No obvious previous relationships
Childlike flirting with a very unforgettable married Dr

It's like paint by numbers personhood.

And don't get me wrong. Some people are asexual or aromatic. Some people live for their work. Some people are awkward or reluctant, socially. Some love holidaying with their families into adulthood. There's nothing pathological in those things on their own, as part of an individual's life.

What is clear to me is a pervasive wrongness in Letby. Everything she does feels artificial, like, 'I'm doing XYZ because that's what human beings do'. Hence her overwhelming beigeness. She's averaged out 'what women my age like/do' and decorated her home and life accordingly. But none of it feels real because everything in her life that isn't about murdering babies is a prop to some degree.

I think she had a sadistic bent from very very young, and worked through school to get a career where she could indulge it.

Think of it. A young child obsessed with pain and dead things, you'd be worried, right? But if the answer you get is that they want to be a nurse when they grow up, well, you'd be impressed and proud as punch and nurture that, wouldn't you? You wouldn't be alarmed if you found them pouring over Grey's Anatomy or looking at injuries on the internet.

MOO

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

I can't help thinking the abnormally close, possibly smothering, relationship with parents could be involved.

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

It's like paint by numbers personhood.

And don't get me wrong. Some people are asexual or aromatic. Some people live for their work. Some people are awkward or reluctant, socially. Some love holidaying with their families into adulthood. There's nothing pathological in those things on their own, as part of an individual's life.

What is clear to me is a pervasive wrongness in Letby. Everything she does feels artificial, like, 'I'm doing XYZ because that's what human beings do'. Hence her overwhelming beigeness. She's averaged out 'what women my age like/do' and decorated her home and life accordingly. But none of it feels real because everything in her life that isn't about murdering babies is a prop to some degree.

Weirdly enough, I'm just watching the remake from 1978 of The Invasion of the Bodysnatchers.

 

[PoirotPink]

It's strange because I've always seen her as an odd bod. Not your average young woman of her age.
Obviously the things listed do not make serial killers but I certainly think "her face didn't fit" as she said herself.

She looks a little frumpy and old fashioned.
Most of her socialising was with married women much older.
Salsa and work cocktails is not your average "young" persons social life.
Holidays to Devon with your parents ? Really?
No obvious previous relationships
Childlike flirting with a very unforgettable married Dr

I'm not keen on labelling people just because they do things that are not typical of their age or regarded as "normal". Lots of people have difficulty forming relationships because they're avoidant, for example, which has roots in childhood trauma, facing parental neglect and having to be self-reliant from a young age. Just because some people have a propensity towards independence and self-reliance does not make them weirdos who must be hiding dark secrets.

What I notice with Letby, which has been alluded to in other comments and the description of her as "beige", is a lack of her own personality. This can happen when a child is "prevented" from individuating by a narcissistic parent. When a child is doing what the narcissistic parent desires (re-inforcing the parent's ego), the child is treated favourably (golden child), and if the child lacks empathy this can result in them becoming narcissistic themselves, sometimes to a worse extent than the original parent. I do think it's likely that her family has a narcissistic family dynamic in which she was the preferred Golden Child who can do no wrong.

 

[JosieJo]

I'm not keen on labelling people just because they do things that are not typical of their age or regarded as "normal". Lots of people have difficulty forming relationships because they're avoidant, for example, which has roots in childhood trauma, facing parental neglect and having to be self-reliant from a young age. Just because some people have a propensity towards independence and self-reliance does not make them weirdos who must be hiding dark secrets.

What I notice with Letby, which has been alluded to in other comments and the description of her as "beige", is a lack of her own personality. This can happen when a child is "prevented" from individuating by a narcissistic parent. When a child is doing what the narcissistic parent desires (re-inforcing the parent's ego), the child is treated favourably (golden child), and if the child lacks empathy this can result in them becoming narcissistic themselves, sometimes to a worse extent than the original parent. I do think it's likely that her family has a narcissistic family dynamic in which she was the preferred Golden Child who can do no wrong.

I agree ..which is why I stated those characteristics doesn't make a killer.
With LL though she often came across as very bitter in messages about her face not fitting etc

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm not keen on labelling people just because they do things that are not typical of their age or regarded as "normal". Lots of people have difficulty forming relationships because they're avoidant, for example, which has roots in childhood trauma, facing parental neglect and having to be self-reliant from a young age. Just because some people have a propensity towards independence and self-reliance does not make them weirdos who must be hiding dark secrets.

What I notice with Letby, which has been alluded to in other comments and the description of her as "beige", is a lack of her own personality. This can happen when a child is "prevented" from individuating by a narcissistic parent. When a child is doing what the narcissistic parent desires (re-inforcing the parent's ego), the child is treated favourably (golden child), and if the child lacks empathy this can result in them becoming narcissistic themselves, sometimes to a worse extent than the original parent. I do think it's likely that her family has a narcissistic family dynamic in which she was the preferred Golden Child who can do no wrong.

Her family was oddly upset about her living and working in another city.

Was it because they didn't want her to live her own life?

Or was it because they knew she needed close supervision?

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

For me, the datix form I found pretty damning. And barely anyone talks about it either! I never see it reported when it comes to the most convincing evidence.
She made the notes on her phone after receiving a phone call telling her not to come in for a night shift. If i am remembering it correctly, didn’t she have a meltdown after this call and at 11.30pm wrote a note reminding her to fill out a datix report for faulty equipment?
To me this is quite a deliberate attempt to cover her tracks. She was thinking in her head “*advertiser censored*, what have they found?? And purposefully covering for herself.

Good one. Tbh i didn't know the extent of the datix forms but a quick g search and lots there. Yeh seems like a panicked lucy trying to throw shade at other folks to take the heat off. Mr Johnson said one of them later found to be false was made so if believed it would rule out AE. That's quite calculated.

 

[Sweeper2000]

For me, the datix form I found pretty damning. And barely anyone talks about it either! I never see it reported when it comes to the most convincing evidence.
She made the notes on her phone after receiving a phone call telling her not to come in for a night shift. If i am remembering it correctly, didn’t she have a meltdown after this call and at 11.30pm wrote a note reminding her to fill out a datix report for faulty equipment?
To me this is quite a deliberate attempt to cover her tracks. She was thinking in her head “*advertiser censored*, what have they found?? And purposefully covering for herself.

I think your right, that's probably the most damning piece of evidence for AE and that she knew. I got caught up on the lack of imoo hard evidence for AE but that totally removed any doubt. Wow this b is totally evil.

 

[Honeybirdette]

I think your right, that's probably the most damning piece of evidence for AE and that she knew. I got caught up on the lack of imoo hard evidence for AE but that totally removed any doubt. Wow this b is totally evil.

That’s what I mean. I’m shocked it’s not mentioned in more reports because it’s a very calculated thing she did. Much more convincing than the notes for example, which every media outlet focus on instead. For me, the notes weren’t really that convincing !

 

[Sweeper2000]

That’s what I mean. I’m shocked it’s not mentioned in more reports because it’s a very calculated thing she did. Much more convincing than the notes for example, which every media outlet focus on instead. For me, the notes weren’t really that convincing !

So true, imo thats the strongest point to show culpability in ALL of the AE cases yet is glossed over seemingly also is headline worthy "lucy letby lied to hide attack".

how much can you make of scribbles? Allot by media standards maybe but a hard logic not so much I think. I thought the handovers were more important tbh. It wouldn't be a good thing if they focused on the notes due to them featuring doc choc hey? Would be a certain cheapening of the situation imo.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Think of it. A young child obsessed with pain and dead things, you'd be worried, right?

Quotes RSBM.
Nothing even hinting at such during her childhood has come out, though. What if she wasn't ever particularly odd? What if the murders of babies was actually out of character from the rest of her life?

I do think it's likely that her family has a narcissistic family dynamic in which she was the preferred Golden Child who can do no wrong.

She was the only child so not the preferred child. But it would be interesting to know if there was any wrongdoing from her past that her parents excused away.

IMO.