UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

The parents statement on the Thirwell inquiry certainly implicates the doctors to a large degree
He told me that it might be better if my child didn’t pull through- just sit with that comment for a moment and then consider your opinion of whether that is a professional and competent comment from a doctor to the parents of child o
 
The NHS is not perfect in many ways and hasn't been for many years. Unfortunately any criticism of "our NHS" is often met with a response one gets when criticising a religion or the royal family. The NHS isn't perfect, far from it. It tries to do the best with what it has. There is a history of failings within the system however, a culture of passing the buck and sometimes outright denial there could possibly be an issue/problem with treatments. I won't go in to details about my current issues with the NHS as that would be o/t I guess.

I remember many moons ago, very early on in the trial, writing a comment here with respect to the very many poor NHS quality of service outcomes I have experienced. I've been there, seen it and had it too and with my parents and friends. It's often not just the outcomes but the whole quality of care, attitude of the staff and facilities being in disrepair. I've been in to hospitals and other NHS facilities where you can smell urine and faeces in the communal/public areas, not just the wards where you may very well expect to have these things in certain circumstances.

Suffice to say the NHS is very far from perfect in many ways; however being part of the 'establishment' and the 'way things are done here' their failings are often covered up, minimised, not spoken about until the last possible minute - most often at a court case where the S may well hit the F. By the time the case comes to court the relevant NHS management have moved on and started in another similar well-remunerated role somewhere else. At the same time politicians tut tut amongst themselves and utter the same old refrain that "lessons will be learned" and nothing more is heard of again and things don't improve. It's a great shame but that is how it is.

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He told me that it might be better if my child didn’t pull through- just sit with that comment for a moment and then consider your opinion of whether that is a professional and competent comment from a doctor to the parents of child o

That's a tricky one.

Having had experience of birth trauma and a newborn's potential brain injury, my experience was that doctors in that situation tell the truth. And horribly, there are situations when saving a baby who will go on to have very low quality of life may not be the best course of action.

Of course we can't hear the tone. For sure doctors don't always say things in the right way, but if it's a medical opinion then they have to give it because what they can't do or at least IMO what they *don't* ever do is "give reassurance".

They tell you the reality, because that's what you have to be prepared for.

JMO of course.

I followed this trial so closely at the time and I too was very much of the opinion that LL was not only guilty but extremely manipulative. These legal shenanigans seem to me entirely in keeping with the persona she revealed at trial. She will keep going because in her mind she has done nothing wrong.

EDITED for sense and typos from typing on phone.
 
I’d go for trying to change public opinion and get as much attention as possible before the next lot of charges arrive and they have to be quiet. Along with trying to make out their new “evidence” is so important it had to be shared publicly and urgently rather than just going through the usual process like everybody else.
But any application to the CCRC and subsequent appeal to to the courts won't involve a jury so no chance of influencing, in reality.

Other than ego and personal glory I can't really see much point to this.
 
That's a tricky one.

Having had experience of birth trauma and a newborn's potential brain injury, my experience was that doctors in that situation tell the truth. And horribly, there are situations when saving a baby who will go on to have very low quality of life may not be the best course of action.

Of course we can't hear the tone. For sure doctors don't always say things in the right way, but if it's a medical opinion then they have to give it because what they can't do or at least IMO what they *don't* ever do is "give reassurance".

They tell you the reality, because that's what you have to be prepared for.

JMO of course.

I followed this trial so closely at the time and I too was very much of the opinion that LL was not only guilty but extremely manipulative. These legal shenanigans seem to me entirely in keeping with the persona she revealed at trial. She will keep going because in her mind she has done nothing wrong.

EDITED for sense and typos from typing on phone.
How about the father’s quote about child p, the sibling- the doctors were running round like headless chickens looking like they had no idea what was wrong. Whatever tone we choose to try and believe, when you read the transcripts of these parents reliving their experiences, they all talk about a sense of chaos and lack of knowledge- in fact in child p’s case it becomes worse. The parents are bewildered by the lack of experience and ability to do anything and one nurse, not LL was googling how to do a lung drain to assist- all witnessed by the parents and quoted in the Thirwell Inquiry
 
Implicates them in what respect?

They were faced with very unusual and unexpected events. Of course, we now know why.
Doctors are frequently faced with scenarios they don’t understand immediately or have a diagnosis and deal with the medical emergency- No doctors (and there were multiple there) should be giving the impression they know less than the parents in attendance, nor should nurses be googling in an emergency in front of parents. To clarify it, if someone arrived at A&E after an attempted murder- would you expect the doctors to look baffled? This was not a maternity unit, this was a unit specifically for neonatal intensive care where emergencies are a day to day occurrence.
 
But any application to the CCRC and subsequent appeal to to the courts won't involve a jury so no chance of influencing, in reality.

Other than ego and personal glory I can't really see much point to this.
Unfortunately there is a systemic issue with NHS care overall, particularly highlighted recently in various neonatal units across the country. As much as some believe it’s about people proving LL is innocent, it’s actually about understanding the failures from funding, training and sheer lack of staff that people are fighting for this to be relooked at from a wider perspective. There is a small aspect of if a nurse is trained in a shoddy environment and then employed in a shoddy environment- she will become a shoddy nurse who takes advantage, but in many ways that’s not the driving force for wanting this case to be looked at more thoroughly. It’s about wanting a deeper understanding and an acknowledgement that our maternity services need to improve. I think of murder cases like Libby Swuire- limited evidence and then a he says that didn’t happen case- but he’s found guilty. In this case- why restrict information, throw all the information in there and then figure it out. This case is much bigger to most people than finding LL guilty or not- it’s about what standards we can expect in our free NHS and where we go from here
 
It would be very Naive to think the NHS is not a mess .. there are excellent Dr's and Nurses and poor ones. Massive under staffing and underfunding poor leadership, cover ups etc etc ... but ..it's pretty much across the country...everywhere..not just COCH ..which makes it very difficult to believe such a large and sudden increase in baby deaths that were particularly unusual or difficult to treat is down to something that's all over
 
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But any application to the CCRC and subsequent appeal to to the courts won't involve a jury so no chance of influencing, in reality.

Other than ego and personal glory I can't really see much point to this.
I was thinking more of trying to influence public opinion ahead of any potential trial for the new charges police interviewed her about recently, but I guess there’s also a remote chance that there could be a retrial at some point too (though I don’t personally think it will get that far).
 
Implicates them in what respect?

They were faced with very unusual and unexpected events. Of course, we now know why.
Exactly this! There was chaos and situations they weren’t used to and wouldn’t normally see precisely because LL had deliberately created that chaos and those situations.
 
Doctors are frequently faced with scenarios they don’t understand immediately or have a diagnosis and deal with the medical emergency- No doctors (and there were multiple there) should be giving the impression they know less than the parents in attendance, nor should nurses be googling in an emergency in front of parents. To clarify it, if someone arrived at A&E after an attempted murder- would you expect the doctors to look baffled? This was not a maternity unit, this was a unit specifically for neonatal intensive care where emergencies are a day to day occurrence.
The kind of emergencies LL created weren’t usually a day to day occurrence at all though, as confirmed by many nurses and doctors during the trial and during Thirlwall. Both were seeing things they’d never seen before throughout their entire careers.
 
Again, if this is all true then how come this wasn't brought up in her initial defence? It's hardly as though her defence team was pushed for time to arrange evidence and witnesses in her favor.
Grossly inaffective assistance of counsel imo. I'm surprised WS members seem overwhelmingly confident that this conviction is safe.

As a medical professional who worked in an NHS hospital for twenty years, I have had concerns with this case since the trial first began.

There's absolutely no reason for several, highly regarded medical professionals to come forward and take such an interest including Dr Lee who published the study that the prosecution based the main manner of death on (air embolism) and further publish a new paper completely debunking the prosecution's narrative that this was murders by air administration via venous catheter causing air embolism...

The risk of the potential damage to each of their professional reputation by supporting the theory that a convicted baby killer is innocent, cannot be underestimated.

The CCRC MUST investigate this thorough and refer to the court of appeals. I completely agree that prior to any charges being filed, a highly qualified multidisciplinary team of professionals in all areas of relevance should have been formed. This is necessary - and needed to question this as unsafe. It was never a safe conviction. Of course it will cause further trauma for the families of each baby. That is a tragedy but the chance of an completely innocent person having had 8, 9 years suspended, remanded, labelled a baby killer,and convicted to several whole life orders based on mostly conjecture on the part of Dewi Evans and two hospital doctors at least one of which had caused significant calm (albeit perhaps unknowingly to at least one neonate... This must be taken seriously.

I can't explain the risk as a registered medical professional but I'm sure the risk is higher as a highly regarded specialist, to come forward due to personal concerns about this case... I wouldn't risk it despite my reservations with this case so I commend the dozens who have been brave and unbiased. Dewi Evans is the opposite.
 
The parents statement on the Thirwell inquiry certainly implicates the doctors to a large degree
Exactly .....watch this conviction get overthrown ...Letby was in the wrong place at the wrong time ...much as everyone on here doesn't like to hear it the case against her is yes overwhelming when everything is added up - but it is circumstantial
 
How about the father’s quote about child p, the sibling- the doctors were running round like headless chickens looking like they had no idea what was wrong. Whatever tone we choose to try and believe, when you read the transcripts of these parents reliving their experiences, they all talk about a sense of chaos and lack of knowledge- in fact in child p’s case it becomes worse. The parents are bewildered by the lack of experience and ability to do anything and one nurse, not LL was googling how to do a lung drain to assist- all witnessed by the parents and quoted in the Thirwell Inquiry
Exactly - so the whole ward was in chaos ...but was all pinned on Letby...shocking miscarriage of justice IMO - watch this space.
 
Exactly .....watch this conviction get overthrown ...Letby was in the wrong place at the wrong time ...much as everyone on here doesn't like to hear it the case against her is yes overwhelming when everything is added up - but it is circumstantial
Do you think circumstantial evidence isn't enough to convict someone of murder? That means people can get away with murdering babies, because nobody ever sees them doing it.
 

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