UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

Observe_dont_Absorb

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Well this is the typical approach that JC would use, he doesn’t plan that well. If it was him he’d have tried to persuade SJL not to dump him, then when this failed the red mist would descend.
IMO his planning would only go as far as what he might do if SJL dumped him.
Shirley Banks was kept captive for some time before he murdered her. Maybe he did the same with SJL.
It’s one option that fits with the crazy time of day SJL was abducted.

yep, I can envisage a scenario where whomsoever she met, assuming she went somewhere to meet someone, not nec at 37SR, for some type of discussion / negotiation or even a fling, something enraged that person sufficient to ‘the red mist’ event. That person would need to think real fast and do something no one noticed, leaving no obvious trail or evidence which is the difficult bit to envisage.
 

Whitehall 1212

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That person would need to think real fast and do something no one noticed, leaving no obvious trail or evidence which is the difficult bit to envisage.

Absolutely, which is why I think JC had access to another property or part of a property nearby and he persuaded SJL to go there with him.
 

Pinkizzy

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yep, I can envisage a scenario where whomsoever she met, assuming she went somewhere to meet someone, not nec at 37SR, for some type of discussion / negotiation or even a fling, something enraged that person sufficient to ‘the red mist’ event. That person would need to think real fast and do something no one noticed, leaving no obvious trail or evidence which is the difficult bit to envisage.
The murder may have happened inside a property after SJL followed him willingly.
 

Whitehall 1212

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The murder may have happened inside a property after SJL followed him willingly.

I firmly believe that it required SJL to know her abductor on some level and go with him willingly to a location that was out of the sight and hearing of others.

The abductor needed the acquaintance with SJL to provide him with the opportunity to be in her company long enough without causing her any alarm. I think his strike was unplanned and spontaneous on account of her rejecting his attempt to either kiss her or engage in other sexual activity.

The abduction of a stranger in broad daylight in a west London street at lunchtime on a summers working day would have been far, far too risky.

JMO
 

Terryb808

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yep, I can envisage a scenario where whomsoever she met, assuming she went somewhere to meet someone, not nec at 37SR, for some type of discussion / negotiation or even a fling, something enraged that person sufficient to ‘the red mist’ event. That person would need to think real fast and do something no one noticed, leaving no obvious trail or evidence which is the difficult bit to envisage.
I listened to the BBC Sounds documentary “Bodies in the Garden”. The couple shot her parents, no one noticed the gunshots and they buried the bodies in the back garden.
Apparently the neighbours thought when he was digging a large hole he was doing some extreme gardening.
All done during the day and they were not found out for about 15 years.
So you just can’t rule anything out.
 

RichardKimble

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I firmly believe that it required SJL to know her abductor on some level and go with him willingly to a location that was out of the sight and hearing of others.

The abductor needed the acquaintance with SJL to provide him with the opportunity to be in her company long enough without causing her any alarm. I think his strike was unplanned and spontaneous on account of her rejecting his attempt to either kiss her or engage in other sexual activity.

The abduction of a stranger in broad daylight in a west London street at lunchtime on a summers working day would have been far, far too risky.

JMO
So the question is, did JC and SL know each other ? on what basis, socially ? intimately ? or through her work and JC as a client ?
 

Observe_dont_Absorb

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I firmly believe that it required SJL to know her abductor on some level and go with him willingly to a location that was out of the sight and hearing of others.

The abductor needed the acquaintance with SJL to provide him with the opportunity to be in her company long enough without causing her any alarm. I think his strike was unplanned and spontaneous on account of her rejecting his attempt to either kiss her or engage in other sexual activity.

The abduction of a stranger in broad daylight in a west London street at lunchtime on a summers working day would have been far, far too risky.

JMO

IMO it is also highly probably SJL knew the perpetrator and was lured somewhere on a pretext.

Whether it was to a romantic liaison, a property viewing, to the pub to pick up her belongings, to have a private 'business' meeting discussing finance / property, to go on a personal errand none of us have imagined.

Setting that likelihood aside, it's also still possible she was carjacked or snatched and abducted by a total random criminal who had never known her or interacted with her before in any context whatsoever. As we know, those types of crimes are very rare but they do happen (often perpetrated by people who are rapists, very desperate, or severely mentally ill). Look what happened to Sarah Everard, if it wasn't for modern day CCTV and number plate recognition, not a single person would know where she disappeared to and it was only with the luck of a bus camera that we found out.

There's so many variables and outcomes in the SJL case that it's not possible to narrow it down to one story IMO.
 

Observe_dont_Absorb

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I listened to the BBC Sounds documentary “Bodies in the Garden”. The couple shot her parents, no one noticed the gunshots and they buried the bodies in the back garden.
Apparently the neighbours thought when he was digging a large hole he was doing some extreme gardening.
All done during the day and they were not found out for about 15 years.
So you just can’t rule anything out.

Indeed. I mean what kind of disturbed mind would a person need to have to imagine seeing the neighbours digging a trench meant they were burying their parents after murdering them!? It wouldn't be my first thought. Same as if you see your neighbour loading a large suitcase to their car you're not going to think oh they've killed the missus. Well... maybe us lot would!
 

Observe_dont_Absorb

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<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
I agree that if there is secret information we aren't privy to, then using the 'ah but there's things you don't know about' argument is always going to thwart our discussions.

<modsnip>
 
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Whitehall 1212

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So the question is, did JC and SL know each other ? on what basis, socially ? intimately ? or through her work and JC as a client ?

Who knows? I doubt it was an established or intimate relationship. Possibly someone she met 'socially' (wine bar/pub), which JC may have engineered after seeing her at work from a distance...stalking.

I don't doubt that he would have played the successful businessman who was looking to increase his property portfolio etc.

SJL was driven by the desire for wealth and she would have seen such a man as an opportunity, either personally or professionally.
 

Whitehall 1212

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IMO it is also highly probably SJL knew the perpetrator and was lured somewhere on a pretext.

Whether it was to a romantic liaison, a property viewing, to the pub to pick up her belongings, to have a private 'business' meeting discussing finance / property, to go on a personal errand none of us have imagined.

Setting that likelihood aside, it's also still possible she was carjacked or snatched and abducted by a total random criminal who had never known her or interacted with her before in any context whatsoever. As we know, those types of crimes are very rare but they do happen (often perpetrated by people who are rapists, very desperate, or severely mentally ill). Look what happened to Sarah Everard, if it wasn't for modern day CCTV and number plate recognition, not a single person would know where she disappeared to and it was only with the luck of a bus camera that we found out.

There's so many variables and outcomes in the SJL case that it's not possible to narrow it down to one story IMO.

I'm racking my brains to think of any abductions of using force during a summer working day in a city. I can't recall any....anyone? It would be a very risky MO and any element of planning would steer away from it.

Kidnapping can use force or fraud. WC kidnapped SE used his warrant card to place SE into a position where he could overpower her away from sight and sound of others.

There are so many ways that someone with bad intent could trick another into compliance and thereby into a situation where they can be overwhelmed out of sight and sound of others.

I suspect JC used the successful businessman type in much the same way. I believe that SJL would have been enticed by it.
 

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There's so many variables and outcomes in the SJL case that it's not possible to narrow it down to one story IMO.

Which is the very reason why it's essential to follow the evidence.

There is rarely a smoking gun or one fact that seals the deal.

More often than not it is a collection of evidential facts, which together highlight the offenders guilt. There is rarely a clear picture of what exactly took place.
 
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RichardKimble

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Which is the very reason why it's essential to follow the evidence.

There is rarely a smoking gun or one fact that seals the deal.

More often than not it is a collection of evidential facts, which together highlight the offenders guilt. There is rarely a clear picture of what exactly took place.
I'll refer back to the Red Sierra, DNA evidence suggest's that both JC and SL were in that car, CPS say it cannot be established that they were both in it at the same time, meaning IMO that both had access to the car, JC's DNA was not found in the Estates Fiesta, suggestive that he was not in it, yet the very one which they were both in , is not sufficient along with other evidence supposedly linking JC , whats missing here ? What threshold was not met to charge JC ?

I realise we are not party to all that is known, but what we do know is that what the LE have, the CPS thinks there is reasonable doubt a jury would convict.
 
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