Found Alive UT - Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, Zion National Park, 6 Oct 2020 #2

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by doublestop, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. missingm

    missingm Well-Known Member

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    Check out this article and the credits on the pictures:
    Zion hiker Holly Courtier's sister speaks out on 'discrepancies' in rescue story
    Notice for the two personal pictures they cite the National Park Service, not who took the pictures.

    Here is another article from CNN. The first is credited to a "Kailey Chambers", the other is to the National Park Service.
    Rescued hiker Holly Courtier: She was dehydrated, hurt and 'praying to be found' in Zion National Park, her sister says - CNN

    If a picture is sold by a professional photographer (or even an amatuer), the credit stays with the photo. If it is given to them and there are no obvious allowed use issues, the credit is given to whomever gave them the photos. They may try to find out who took the picture, but they don't have to.
     


  2. LAhiker

    LAhiker Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think we were focusing on the pictures of the immediate area in which Courtier was found that were included in this article and which say "Courtesy Holly Courtier":

    Sister of missing Zion hiker says her survival without food and water was 'a miracle'
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  3. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    You’re right. I really don’t get it. In their zeal to defend her they made things so much worse. None of what they said resolved the inconsistencies. In fact, their statements prompted an LE official to speak out in frustration.

    And instead of ending it, they indeed doubled down. Not smart.

    And yes, their statements are dangerous. They’re lying.

    One of them using the words “this has been blown out of proportion” regarding her lying by the river so she had a water source, and then changing it to wetting her mouth, that bothers me. Because this was a big deal. And she wouldn’t have survived by wetting her mouth for 12 days, even if she didn’t die from the toxins in the water.

    For me, it seems like this lady was having a manic episode that made her feel invincible and able to fix her problems through some sort of impulsive quest in nature. She had gone with her daughter a week before and probably had a good time. So she could have been drawn back to that feeling as a means of resolving her crises.

    My sense is something like the following may have happened: She didn’t leave as a normal person. She didn’t make a real plan. She didn’t give a detailed itinerary. She didn’t explain what she was doing, where exactly and for how long.

    But she felt she had to disconnect from everyone and commune with nature and God to get back to what she was supposed to be. So she left her phone and didn’t describe her plans.

    Once there, if and when she heard people searching, she could’ve hidden, even after hearing her name, thinking in a manic state that this was a test, or that she absolutely had to stay hidden to complete her quest. She may have hiked out at night to fill up with water at the water bottle filling stations:

    Goods & Services - Zion National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

    She could have been fasting or eating minimally though, continuing to try to fulfill some sort of spiritual quest. In her mind.

    But finally some hikers saw her or her hammock. Maybe they were trying to find a place to pee or something and stumbled upon it. As a result, searchers went to the location and found her.

    When she was found and realized what a big deal it was, and after she saw the relief and anguish of her family, she may have been embarrassed and/or felt she needed to convince them of the importance of what she did. She could’ve also been still in a manic state and not that able to explain how she survived. Or she wanted to keep that a secret between her and God or whatever.

    She may have even hurt her head in some fashion and her family jumped on that to explain away her bizarre behavior. And then as the public expressed frustration with the situation and she or they realized that a manic quest to a National Park would not be a satisfactory outcome to some, the story got embellished. I can just see a lot of questioning and maybe leading questions or the story changing as details coming out aren’t accepted.

    I think this is more likely similar to what happened. I don’t really believe a scam was at play.
     
  4. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    Did Holly suffer from an eating disorder? If so, that might explain why her family considered her survival a "miracle." Imo
     
  5. SFDukie

    SFDukie Well-Known Member

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    I missed the crusoe markings. can someone enlighten me, please?
     
  6. SFDukie

    SFDukie Well-Known Member

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    I don't think authorities will know of diagnosis (or lack therof), necessarily. And often, doc will say something to a family member which is speculative, but may become represented as "proven". May or may not apply here.
     
  7. SFDukie

    SFDukie Well-Known Member

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    In those temperatures, she had to have been drinking water from somewhere over a 12 day period. I'm certain she wouldn't have been able to walk out, with or without assistance, had she not.
     
  8. Orgona

    Orgona Well-Known Member

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    I agree, she did have to drink to survive. This is why it is so strange the family putting out she didn’t. Or it isn’t strange if it is to push the miracle narrative.

    ETA:
    Or the family was/is just repeating what she told them and they never understood that this is just physically impossible.

    ETA2: added missing verb
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  9. LAhiker

    LAhiker Well-Known Member

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  10. Auntie Cipation

    Auntie Cipation Context Matters.

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    I understand what you're saying, and that may in fact be what happened. But I have a suspicion/theory that goes in a different direction. More along Balloon Boy lines.
     
  11. monkey222

    monkey222 Well-Known Member

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    Can't get past the perfect dark Sharpie lines. Must have been the best one from the manufacturing lot, and brand new. I can't make several
    dark fat lines from a Sharpie on a piece of paper without letting the ink start letting up, let alone drawing on a rough tree branch.
     
  12. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    There are so many people who have eating disorders, and it is no joke. It worries me significantly that people may think that they could emulate this same type of "miracle spiritual journey" with no food and water.

    And if they don't make it? Shrug, they just didn't pray enough.
     
  13. iamnotagolem

    iamnotagolem Well-Known Member

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    The running theory seems to be she was hiding in the park, but if she was daily making marks on the tree and hiding out, then how did no one see the marks and think “oh look marks the same number of days that holly has been missing”?

    I think they were all made the 19th. I think that’s the only day she was in the park.
     
  14. Seni

    Seni Well-Known Member

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  15. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    She was in a thickly vegetated area. It would be easy to miss that tree, probably.
     
  16. monkey222

    monkey222 Well-Known Member

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    Armed with a powerful sharpie and nothing else, my brain would tell me to write SOS or HELP on other trees as far away from the hammock or water? that I could manage. in case I passed out "somewhere". .. At least this way the searchers would look nearby. (seems like Gilligan would do this if he had an El Marko back then)
     
  17. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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  18. MsMarple

    MsMarple Well-Known Member

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    Her sister called it a “miracle.”
    ...
    “I think God got her through this,” Courtier’s sister Jaime Strong, 41, told NBC News. “I think it’s a miracle. I truly believe there is no reason she should be alive. It doesn’t make sense. She didn’t have the proper gear, and she didn’t have food or water.”
    ...
    They discovered that she was in Zion only after Courtier’s roommate filed a missing persons report and the authorities discovered she used her credit card to pay to enter the park, Oliver said.
    Questions remain about Woodland Hills woman found alive after going missing in Zion National Park

    HC's FB contains many posts of scientifically unsound health related news articles which makes me wonder if her sisters hold similar beliefs. I suppose it could cloud reality. I'd like to hear her story directly but I suspect HC's family members will continue to speak for her instead.

    The silly thing is that if HC (or her family) had said anything even remotely logical about her finding water over the 12 days IMO there'd have been less criticism. After all the main eyebrow raiser is the claim that HC didn't have water way past the time when her body would have shut down yet she survived.

    Let's just hope HC's story doesn't inspire someone else to go on a dry fasting journey in the wilderness! And someone owes all those searchers a big apology IMO.
     
  19. iamnotagolem

    iamnotagolem Well-Known Member

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    RSBM

    This is so incredibly dangerous. Convincing people that dry fasting is a good idea, that dry fasting for 15-17 days (yesterday they said she started dry fast several days before she left) is even possible without death, these are just terrible ideas.

    And before anyone says “oh people are too smart to try to copy her”. Nope. Look at how many people believe what the family is saying.

    People will die if they try to do what Holly claims to have done. It wasn’t a “miracle”, it was a poorly planned and executed scheme to make some money and get a book or movie deal. When no one believed their lies, they just lied more.
     
  20. Lilibet

    Lilibet Watching & Waiting

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    I honestly don’t think they had a clue how long someone could go without water initially and were basing their statements on what HC claimed. But a sister stated what a medical professional told her in the article dated today, which doesn’t make sense to me:

    “She had started kidney failure and she was one to two days from death,” Oliver told The Times. She said a medical professional who examined Courtier had told her this and added that she appeared to have a concussion.
    Questions remain about Woodland Hills woman found alive after going missing in Zion National Park

    I don’t see how she could have been released and flown home if this was actually the case. I recall that Sherri Papini was released quickly too. Or else they left the hospital against medical advice. We’ll probably never know what really happened in either case.
    JMO
     

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