Found Alive UT - Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, Zion National Park, 6 Oct 2020 #2

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by doublestop, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    After seeing gitana's reading of that CCTV photo, I'm revising my idea of what that pack is. I now see it's not a fanny pack plus string-pull sack, but all one piece. I'm researching the possibilities.
    It's kinda goofy though. Look at those gigantic hip pockets. And that scrawny harness. And how packed it is. It probably sat on her back like a big lump. It was going to be killer within half a mile.
     


  2. Auntie Cipation

    Auntie Cipation Context Matters.

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    After zooming in on these photos, I notice at the bottom of the third photo, lots of boot prints.

    12005695-4A39-48A6-B2B4-2C8409E7FDCA.jpeg

    Initially I thought that meant the photo was taken after her discovery, but upon further thought I'm not so sure.

    If she took photos of her intended camp spot upon arrival, could there have been lots of boot prints from others passing through? Or would that be too much a disconnect with the idea that supposedly no one came through there to find her in 12 days?
     
  3. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    You could look up the lug pattern on her boots, and you'd have your answer.
    That might even be 2 different lug patterns; you'd have your answer that way, too.
     
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  4. Auntie Cipation

    Auntie Cipation Context Matters.

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    That would be a good place to start. Of course we don't really know if she had boots with her or not. Only reports of what she owned and receipts for stuff she bought, but no certainly what she brought into the park. And of course she walked in, at least once, and apparently out. Maybe in/out many times, retrieving water, walking to restroom, or even leaving park and returning, there are lots of theories. But many rescuers also walked through there, plus who knows who else.

    I wish I was a tracker who could look at that photo and say with confidence how many people made those tracks, wearing what shoes, and in what order.
     
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  5. LAhiker

    LAhiker Well-Known Member

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    Would the bootprints stay that intact after 12 days, whether or not Holly was there for those 12 days? Would wind have dissipated them? I don't know how long prints last. It also sounds like the "campsite," though close to busy areas, was not a place that people constantly walk through, though of course I could be wrong.

    On the other hand, the branch that had the markings appears to be visible in the same photo, but it's hard to see the markings. That could just because they're too small to see at that resolution. (I think the photo plus the bootprints give a better sense of scale -- it looks like the branch is easily reachable with one's Sharpie...)
    holly-courtier-zoom3-mc-inline-201022-02_1fe983a45532aaac27596140f5936eba.fit-1520w.jpg

    That could mean the photo was taken when she got there. But to me, the lighting looks similar in all three photos. I think they were taken on the same day, whenever that day was and whoever took them. Given the markings on the tree -- whether those were made day-by-day or all at once -- I think the photos were taken on or after the 12th day. And my guess is that the bootprints were either hers, SAR's, or both. (If her friends/family members were there, the prints could also be theirs.)

    (In the photo in this post, the tree trunk behind the twisted branch looks odd -- part of it looks blurry and part very detailed. It may actually be the trunks of two different trees, one behind the other.)

    JMO
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  6. Mojito

    Mojito Well-Known Member

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    WAIT....Holly was so weak she couldn't open her mouth to yell at a hiker she saw BUT she could mark the days in sharpie, in perfect straight lines, on a tree? No thanks.
     
  7. insearchoflight

    insearchoflight Well-Known Member

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    It seems clear to me what happened here. She was depressed and went off the grid so to speak in a state of helplessness. Maybe trying to find answers, find purpose, who knows! I do not think she was just perfectly fine and faking this all for what? Attention? Money? No, I think she had a manic episode and needed help mentally and emotionally. I’m happy for her daughter that she was found safe and can begin to heal and rebuild. Moo
     
  8. monkey222

    monkey222 Well-Known Member

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    The super powered sharpie just bothers me.
     
  9. dixiegirl1035

    dixiegirl1035 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have handy to bump the photo being referred to? Thanks!
     
    roche.analisa, Flicka1 and LAhiker like this.
  10. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    This. And I know Zions NP very well. I imagined that HC had fallen into a crevasse and was hurt. The fact that she was barely off trail, and SAR missed her? But she had enough wherewithal to make deep marks on a tree, standing up each day?! The water issue bothers me as well.

    I am more than willing to acknowledge that someone isn't thinking straight now. But, to keep doggedly adding more and more to what just isn't adding up? Stop it. Go get some mental health treatment that you desperately need.
     
  11. missingm

    missingm Well-Known Member

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    To Holly's credit, I don't believe she has said anything since she was discovered. It has all been the family, no?

    But I agree, the story as is doesn't add up. If she was suffering some mental breakdown and hiding from search parties, I would feel very compassionate for her condition and things would make more sense.
     
  12. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    Maybe they just didn’t think it through. I mean I do think they tried to make the narrative about a miraculous survival rather than a maniacal “quest” on the part of someone having a breakdown. But the story seems to have evolved.

    “Look how smart she is: She stayed near the river so she could access water!”

    This would’ve been said to cover up the fact that she was supposed to be back on the shuttle and wasn’t seen carrying much in the way of supplies.

    “Impossible. The river is toxic.”

    “Oh please. You’re all blowing this out of proportion! I never said she DRANK the water. In fact, all she did was wet her lips.”

    “Why didn’t she answer when people were calling her name then? She was right where there were tons of searchers.”

    “Well she was SO dehydrated that she couldn’t open her mouth.”

    I think the story just evolved from her and her sisters in an attempt to cover up what happened.

    Put it this way: If it was a well thought out scam, why would they make up impossible facts that are easy to refute?
     
  13. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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  14. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    Snipped for focus.
    They didn't know any better (this is a very inexperienced hiker IMO, and there's no mention that her sisters are hikers) and didn't know that their stories would be laughable.
     
  15. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    She had to have had a camera, too. No supplies, inadequate gear, but a camera and a Sharpie.
    Can anyone tell from the photos what kind of camera it is?
     
  16. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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  17. Ontario Mom

    Ontario Mom stay safe ♥ be kind

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    Well sure but, you don't have to be a hiker to know a human being cannot survive 12 days without water. Yet, this is what the story is. Unless it's changed again. o_O
     
  18. Ontario Mom

    Ontario Mom stay safe ♥ be kind

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    Has it been established this photo of her was taken just prior to the hike she disappeared on?
     
  19. Auntie Cipation

    Auntie Cipation Context Matters.

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    To my way of thinking, that's what their "Miracle" is -- surviving what would be otherwise considered clearly physically impossible.

    Someone who survived a survivable-but-harrowing ordeal with perhaps sheer determination -- such as Amanda Eller perhaps -- would be [from my theorizing of HC's perspective] an interesting/inspiring story but without that spiritual Miracle factor. I think that's one reason I lean towards the Miracle being the intended message...

    MOO
     
  20. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    The pack HC is holding in that CCTV photo has me quite confused. It looks like one piece with very large hip pockets, and the one big hip pocket easily visible looks like Cotopaxi. However, Cotopaxi doesn't make a pack with hip pockets, so this could be a jury-rig. But I also couldn't account for the 1" wide harness straps. I suppose it's possible she's holding it upside down. And it would estimate it's not more than 30 liters in volume.
    She might also have an old-model Cotopaxi.

    I've attached a photo/links below of what I think she's got. Note: every single Cotopaxi has different colors; they use leftover fabrics from the outdoor industry.

    Here's why I'm fiddling about with this...
    -That pack is chock full. Does that mean she has food? Exactly not! That pack is tiny. To give you and idea, the clothes she is currently wearing won't even fit into that pack when empty. To me, this ups the degree of crazy.
    -Is there any sign of water? Not that I can see.
    -The light quilt she had plus the hammock would almost fill that pack. IMO

    Pack; 24 liters, no support (it's basically a lump); categorized "lifestyle":

    Luzon 24L Backpack - Del Día

    Fanny pack; big enough to hold a large camera:
    Bataan 3L Fanny Pack - Del Día
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020

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