Found Alive UT - Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, Zion National Park, 6 Oct 2020 #2

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by doublestop, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    I am very concerned about the focus on fasting, especially the "dry fasting". A lot of young people are actually very interested in "Intermittent Fasting", and the spiritual aspect of this. Someone else could do this with a very different outcome.

    As for the "Breathetarians"(sp)? that @MsMarple mentioned, there have been people who have actually starved their children to death with diets like this, one in Utah. Pair starve `Second Christ' baby

    I worry that this "miracle" could affect someone.
     
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  2. BeckyF

    BeckyF Well-Known Member

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    Let’s just say hypothetically that facts come to light which confirm suspicions that she and her family have been misleading everyone. What then? What, if anything, can happen to her, other than the shame and embarrassment?
     
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  3. MissUnderstood

    MissUnderstood On Time Out

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    Would they be liable to pay for any search efforts? Moo
     
  4. tmar

    tmar Well-Known Member

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    If HC and family have been misleading everyone, I hope they are charged and billed to pay for the searches.
     
  5. Seattle1

    Seattle1 #LiveLikeLizzy&Gabby

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    Supplemental Press Release ZNP Missing Person Case | WCSO

    Oct 26, 2020

    On October 20th 2020 Sergeant Darrell Cashin spoke with a local media outlet regarding our agency’s involvement in Zion National Park’s missing person investigation of hiker, Holly Courtier. During the interview, Sergeant Cashin commented on circumstances of Courtier’s recovery which were not consistent with our training and experience.

    These inconsistencies raised some questions as to the authenticity of the events as reported to law enforcement. In response to numerous media inquiries, the Washington County Sheriff’s Office stands behind the observations and statements made by Sergeant Cashin.

    [..]

    We fully support the findings of the National Park Service investigation and believe their investigation into the incident was thorough and well executed.

    Despite the thorough investigation conducted by the National Park Service, Utah State Code does not grant them the authority to investigate violations of Utah law. Based on our local authority and jurisdiction, the Sheriff’s Office had an obligation to the public to investigate the criminal allegations which were being presented.

    At this point in the investigation, there has been no evidence to support the theory that the incident was committed intentionally as an effort to achieve financial gain.

    **********************

    Thanks for posting the link to Supplemental Press Release.

    IMO, WCSO put out this supplemental release specifically as an attempt to quiet the NUMEROUS MEDIA INQUIRIES hitting their office after Sheriff Cashin rightfully commented on the inconsistencies told by HC's 19-year-old daughter and HC's sister. It was misleading and dangerous to suggest that one can survive 12 days in the park without food or water, period.

    It further seems WCSO is putting the public on notice that they are only the Utah state agent to the park, and have no intention of interfering or overstepping NPS, but clearly endorsed NPS' thorough investigation on the recovery of the missing hiker (i.e., WSCO not responsible for federal charges so stop asking us).

    More important, WCSO informed the public that it was their police duty to look into the allegations that HC missing in the park was used as a fraud for financial gain, and made it clear that they investigated and found no evidence to support this theory or allegation. They made it very clear that they don't want to be bothered with any more complaints and/or allegations unless it's a lead that comes with credible, tangible information for investigators.

    I think both agencies (NPS and WCSO) have been overwhelmed by the continued media interest one week after hiker HC walked away, and really want to get back to preparing the park for winter and WCSO tending to other pressing issues for the local county government.

    MOO
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  6. Blondiexoxo

    Blondiexoxo Studying Forensic Psychology BSc hons

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    The spaces between the sets of tally marks are equal, actually identical. If she’s putting a line every day they’re not going to be consistently equal, one will naturally be higher than the other and the marks wouldn’t be as close to each other as they are in these pictures. If you draw tally’s all at the same time you’ll get what she’s drew on the branch. If they are drew on separate days different times then you’d have one smaller, larger, wobblier and there would probably be a faded drag mark from where she’s started the line if she hasn’t used the pen since the previous day the ink wouldn’t flow as easily to make each mark bold and perfectly straight. They’d be spaced further apart definitely not all in a row close together like this. IMO
     
  7. Blondiexoxo

    Blondiexoxo Studying Forensic Psychology BSc hons

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    Which brings me to the point.. why did she have a pen? The marks look like a felt tip pen or marker, if she was writing while she was out there then surely she’d have took a ballpoint pen. No water or essentials but a marker pen? Doesn’t make sense in the slightest. Then again nothing does with this case...
     
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  8. Seattle1

    Seattle1 #LiveLikeLizzy&Gabby

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    Holly Courtier planned to go on spiritual journey, fast inside Zion National Park, family says

    Updated: Oct 23, 2020 / 10:56 AM MDT

    Amanda Rowland, chief of interpretation at Zion National Park, told ABC4 News the final investigative report on the Courtier Search and Rescue (SAR) will be made public, although it’s unclear exactly when it will be released. ABC4 News requested a copy of the final investigative report from the U.S. Department of the Interior through the Freedom of Information Act.
     
  9. Auntie_Seagull

    Auntie_Seagull Former Member

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    Okay then, we'll be waiting for it.
     
  10. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    So, Holly decided to deliberately break the law by stealth camping in the park, she planned it, and executed breaking federal law.

    Then, during the commission of a crime, she injured herself to the point of incapacitation, and had to be rescued because she didn't take any standard precautions at all. Not one standard hiking precaution. She didn't leave a trip plan, didn't have the right gear, food, or water, according to her family.

    Either way, she deliberately committed a crime by stealth camping in a federal park. In addition to the wanton vandalism by defacing a tree with a Sharpie marker, in a National Park.

    Charge her. Even people who are mentally ill should be held accountable for their actions, it may result in court ordered mental health treatment, something this woman desperately needs. And an assessment to see if she is a danger to herself. She may benefit from in person treatment at a federal facility. Her obvious eating disorder is evidence enough that she is a danger to herself. She had to be admitted to a hospital due to this poor judgment and lack of insight.

    Who knows? She may do the same thing next week with a far worse outcome. This woman is obviously a danger to herself. INMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  11. Seattle1

    Seattle1 #LiveLikeLizzy&Gabby

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    I'd never heard the term "stealth camping" before and after reading more links it seems boondocking may be the term for camping for free on federal land.

    Stealth Camping Tips for #vanlife In The City
     
  12. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    The marks are photo-shopped. The second batch is an exact clone of the first.
     
  13. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    Boondocking is the same as "no hookups". It is not about sneaking around or avoiding regulations. Boondocking is for motor homes, trailers, RV's, vans and can be done on any kind of land. It means that you don't have services like sewer, water, and electricity hooked up. Basic services like lights and heat are run off either batteries or propane, and, more recently, solar.
    Stealth camping is generally ambulatory but vehicles also can do this. When permits are required, or it's against the law, you camp on the sneak with no permit. Stealth campers camp out of sight to avoid being picked up.
    A mobile stealth camper in a city would just pull into a spot and make it appear the vehicle is empty while spending the night. A stealth camper in a national park often uses tree cover to hide (e.g. HC).
    Homeless folks living amongst us in the wooded areas of town are stealth-camping (you can't see their camps often, but they are there). They are not "boondocking".
    You can stealth and boondock at the same time. This would be a motorhome camped illegally somewhere.
    I have stealth-camped in the back country several times, generally when I had to. A couple of times, it was too dangerous for me to continue on a trail, so I had to quick put up my tarp and use no lighting lest I be seen. One of my stealth spots was being cruised by police boats, but it was a one-off emergency for me and it was very scary.

    You can boondock in a WalMart parking lot. You can't stealth-camp there 'cos, Honey, those bright security lights and cameras make anything sneaky impossible.

    Both RV's and ambulatory folks can camp for free on much of public land. However, in some places, you can do that only in specific spots. These areas don't generally have services: this would mean boondocking for RVs since they won't have on board electricity and sewage; ambulatory folks would just be camping, put up a tent, etc. This would not be stealth. You might even have LE check in with you to make sure you're following regulations, e.g. you brought your own potty and are not peeing in the desert.

    *******
    The word "boondock" is also a noun. It means "in the back of beyond". It doesn't really pertain to the verb "boondocking".

    Hope that helps!
     
  14. K9Enzo

    K9Enzo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for highlighting this article update.

    IMO, when this report is released, it's most likely not going to show HC in a good light.

    That report might include a witness statement from the park visitor that turned in the tip that led to her location (as I understand it). I'm still interested to know what the person saw, especially if they actually saw HC. Also info might include the initial report of her being missing and by who, description of HC and items she might have had on her by the reporting party, outline by the Incident Command of search assets deployed, detail on HC and her surroundings when she was located, etc.

    I'm interested enough to want to read it. IMO
     
  15. K9Enzo

    K9Enzo Well-Known Member

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    Good observation!

    @Trackergd hello - if you have a moment can you take a look at the attached pic that shows the boot prints? Does that appear to be from a single person or multiple prints throughout the area?

    This case, IMO, is a doozy. Missing hiker found alive (thankfully), after a large scale 10-11 day SAR operation, but many questions as to what really happened, as reported by her family. IMO

    ETA: link with zoomed out pics.
    Holly Courtier planned to go on spiritual journey, fast inside Zion National Park, family says
     
  16. Auntie Cipation

    Auntie Cipation Context Matters.

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    I don't have formal tracking training but I can clearly see at least two styles of shoeprint. One is the classic wafflestomper print, a la: 2E524D5E-3DDD-4E11-BE22-C62FD8557C87.jpeg and the other has two parallel lines of roundish marks, dunno what kind of boot has those.
     
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  17. Ontario Mom

    Ontario Mom stay safe ♥ be kind

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    Respectfully, I have to disagree that they are exact clones. As a professional graphic desiger, without even enlarging the image of the tree I can spot numerous inconsistancies with the marks. That said, they are indeed very, very similar, as if written/drawn all at the same time with the same pen pressure.

    jmo
     
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  18. Knox

    Knox Well-Known Member

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    From your same link -
    Strong said that she doesn’t feel the incident was a “cry for help,” but rather a series of “bad choices that just went horribly wrong.” The sister confirmed that Holly had left the park in the middle of the night and did not tell her family where was going, planning to disconnect from technology, pray and read the Bible, and fast.
    Holly Courtier planned to go on spiritual journey, fast inside Zion National Park, family says

    I realize this is a reporter typo, but under the circumstances I found it interesting. I laughed and thought how funny if someone had been meeting her to give food & water under cover of darkness. This was one strange case for sure.
     
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  19. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    The second set of prints is also from lugged boots IMO. See how deep the punch-outs go? I am not sure what brand: I will check my ENTIRE collection. Do they look a lot smaller than the ones with the traditional pattern? That would suggest a man and a woman.
     
  20. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

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    BBM The NPS had multiple tips by the 13th, per their statement. After following up on these, and not finding her, IMO NPS knew HC was playing hide-and-seek. So the rescue didn't depend on the sighting from one person; it may be that the final sighting tip was reported in the moment and SAR was able to mobilize to that spot immediately, so hide-and-seek wasn't possible.

    Missing Person Search Update 10-13-2020 - Zion National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
     

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